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Business Class Flights and Hotel Elite Status on a Grad Student Stipend

April 21, 2025 by Jill Hoffman Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Brendan Henrique, a fourth-year PhD student in education at the University of California, Berkeley. Brendan leverages his conference and research travel plus personal spending into free luxury travel by amassing credit card points and elite status at hotel chains. He breaks down how he pursues the points and miles hobby even while living on a grad student stipend and how it’s motivated him to work hard so he can play hard. Brendan’s travel habits might seem out of sync with his income or ‘student’ status, but it’s achievable for many grad students who are free from credit card debt and have a small degree of savings.

Links mentioned in the Episode

  • PF for PhDs Spring 2025 Giveaway
  • Brendan Henrique’s Substack: Grad Student Travel
  • Brendan Henrique’s TikTok: Grad Student Travel
  • Host a PF for PhDs Seminar at Your Institution
  • Emily’s E-mail Address
  • Travel Hacking Resource: MilesTalk
  • Frequent Miler
  • PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List
  • PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
Business Class Flights and Hotel Elite Status on a Grad Student Stipend

Teaser

Brendan (00:00): There is a little cognitive dissonance sometimes, um, to the point that through Instagram, some of my friends thought I just had a pile of money in the corner. Part of the reason I’m kind of talking more about it is there’s not any money in the corner, there’s no treasure chest. It’s just really using points effectively. It’s kind of a big disparity sometimes where like for a conference hotel, I’m staying under the university minimum and you have to be this like very responsible steward of like a grant. And then when I do leisure travel for less money because it’s effectively free, I’m at five star luxury resorts.

Introduction

Emily (00:41): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:11): This is Season 20, Episode 8, and today my guest is Brendan Henrique, a fourth-year PhD student in education at the University of California, Berkeley. Brendan leverages his conference and research travel plus personal spending into free luxury travel by amassing credit card points and elite status at hotel chains. He breaks down how he pursues the points and miles hobby even while living on a grad student stipend and how it’s motivated him to work hard so he can play hard. Brendan’s travel habits might seem out of sync with his income or ‘student’ status, but it’s achievable for many grad students who are free from credit card debt and have a small degree of savings.

Emily (01:52): Because we in academia and research are experiencing such precarity in our finances and careers at the moment, I’m doing as much as I can on the financial education side to help you. I’m calling this initiative Giveaway Spring. I’m giving away 60-minute group Q&A calls, 30-minute individual coaching sessions, books, and digital resources—all completely for free—and I’m also sharing the best free financial and career resources I come across for PhDs. Register for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/giveaway/ to receive all the details of the current giveaways and an update every other week. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s20e8/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Brendan Henrique.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:55): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Brandon Henrique. He is a fourth year PhD student at University of California Berkeley and we are here talking about travel hacking or the points and miles hobby or stacking travel rewards. We don’t have a really firm term for this, but that’s our topic for today and Brendan’s gonna tell us all about how he does this as a graduate student. So Brendan, thank you so much for volunteering to come on the podcast. Will you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the audience?

Brendan (03:23): Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. I’ve been a fan of kind of the website and everything for a long time. So I am a fourth year student out in sunny California. I study uh, computer science education, um, at the school of Education at UC, Berkeley and I’ve been, I’m in my fourth year.

Using Travel Rewards for Once in a Lifetime Trips

Emily (03:39): Excellent. For you as a graduate student, what kinds of travel rewards stacking strategies do you use? This is a big question, it’s what we’re gonna talk about for the whole interview, but let’s get a high level intro and then we’ll kind of dive into some different ones.

Brendan (03:54): Yeah, so my kind of claim to fame in this is I use a variety of credit card points, whether it’s signup offers, hotel points, conference days where I can generate points to kind of stay in these amazing once in a lifetime resorts, flights, and were kind of redeem these points for really amazing experiences. And that’s kind, I think if I had to summarize in like one paragraph, that’s kind of what I do.

Emily (04:18): Okay. There’s the part of this process where you are um, gaining points and like amassing the rewards and then there’s a part of it where it’s like deploying the rewards and the points and stuff that you’ve amassed. So I wanna talk about both of those. Um, but first do you stay within like a certain um, family of types of points or certain airlines that you use or do you kind of spread everything all over the map? Tell us about that selection process.

Brendan (04:50): Yeah, and this is actually one of the kind of cool parts about points is depending on what credit card family you want to join. So if you’re an Amex person or a Chase person, a lot of those points transfer. So for me the best value for my chase points is transferring it to Hyatt. So I’ve become a really big Hyatt person to the point that I’ve been able to gain the top status with Hyatt where I get the upgrades, I get the free breakfast, kind of the bells and whistles. And so what I recommend to grad students is pick a hotel brand and stick to it. So the big ones are being Marriott, Hyatt, Hilton, and then when you go to those research meetings you have to do field work for a month and they have you at the Holiday Inn, well it might be great to join IHG collect those points. And all of them really have great luxury properties that you can kind of spin the points from the casual stay to the super stay.

Emily (05:39): It makes sense to me that if your university is sending you somewhere for a period of time, they might control, they might choose which brand you’re staying with, it might depend on exactly the location, what’s available and so forth. Um, do you, have you in your experience had agency over that? Um, like when I go to conferences I just try to stay at the conference hotel, but I know some people stay you know, down the street or whatever. So like do you exert control to like stay within your preferred rewards family or do you just go with wherever they wanna send you?

Brendan (06:10): I’ve had both experience. So sometimes it’s like where we have to go to Philadelphia, stay within a mile of the conference center and at that point I do try to go outta my way. Like where’s the nearest Hyatt, my backup kind of family is Hilton so if there’s not a Hyatt, there’s probably a Hilton and that kind of rings true most of the time. There’s been a couple of times where I did like a two week research project where I was on the road and we had to say like a motel, I tried to pick one that had a super family. So for this one it was Wyndham, I forget the sub-brand and Wyndham points can be transferred to Caesar rewards in Las Vegas at one point percent. So I got to eat a great steak dinner because of my two weeks in a motel.

Accumulating Travel Rewards Points

Emily (06:53): I see, okay. You’ve picked a preferred brand but also you try to have some flexibility depending on you know, the location that that’s calling you or what have you. Let’s talk more about the accumulation of rewards. So it sounds like when your university is paying for you to go and stay somewhere that somehow benefits you personally. Can you tell us how that works?

Brendan (07:13): Yeah, so what I make sure I do is I book direct. So if you book through expedia, booking.com, you don’t collect points. So what I recommend to every grad student, I would honestly sign up for the top five hotel brands, make a loyalty account it’s free and then when you do get sent to conferences you can just plug in your rewards number and even if you have to book through like the travel agency or like the conference booking page, every time I’ve had one it allowed me to put in my number and then on the backend they were sync up. So I’m welcomed as like an elite member or loyalty team member. Usually you get better service, especially with a conference hotel, they’re sold out so if there’s a way to split the difference, they’re gonna look who’s a member who’s not and it’s free to join. So that’s kinda one way to personally benefit is to just kind of sign up and make sure you’re using um, kind of the family you want to stick to, whether it’s you know, your Hyatt or Hilton.

Emily (08:05): Okay. So we have our very easy applicable tip number one which is just sign up for the, you know, the loyalty programs for all the hotels that you interact with in your uh, daily, you know, yearly life. Um, so just sign up for ’em all. Great. Let’s talk more about um, amassing points to yourself. Um, you mentioned Chase earlier, so tell us about your, the credit card like aspect of this strategy.

Brendan (08:31): Yeah, so using credit cards you can get a return on the point. So like I think the Chase Sapphire preferred is kind of your typical, most people will say it’s like your introductory travel card. It gets like two or three times on travel. Those points are transferrable to Hyatt. So let’s say you spend a hundred dollars on a hotel for a conference, you get 200 Hyatt points that you could transfer from Chase to Hyatt. You can also use it a few different ways That is kind of a slow grind but it helps you kind of slowly accumulate points. The big leaps are signup offers. So the Chase Sapphire, I think the signup offer right now is 60,000 points. That’s a significant amount of Hyatt points or you can transfer to I think United Air France, a few other partners. That’s a lot of points for Amex. Their offers tend to be a little more generous I think I’ve seen on the platinum card 175,000 Amex points with 1 cent up offer With them though you have to spend a certain amount of money in a certain amount of time. So for Amex I think it’s 8,000 in three months, which is a massive ask Chase. I think it’s a little bit lower, it’s like 4,000 in three months and some are six months. So you kind of have to play what’s that public signup offer and with what those points are worth for you and can you hit that bonus.

Emily (09:46): I think that’s the real key there. Like I just barely started dipping my toe into credit card rewards when I was in graduate school and I mostly stuck with the cash back offers because of two reasons. One, I was nervous about meeting those minimum spends required to get you know, the big sign up bonuses. Um, and two, I really didn’t wanna pay an annual fee ever <laugh>. I didn’t wanna do the math on whether or not it was worth it. I just didn’t wanna pay fees. So can you speak to both of those kind of like objections?

Common Travel Rewards Concerns: Minimum Spending and Annual Fees

Brendan (10:13): Yeah, so I think it’s also a very valid objection if you’re like, you know what, I don’t really like to travel, I like I would rather put the money in a cash back and just kind of pay myself back then there’s cards meant for that. Like I would still recommend you look into it and there are cards that offer great cash back offers where you spend X amount of money and you immediately get it back. So maybe you wait until the end of the year to pay your taxes, you have that sum or estimated taxes, you kind of time it right, you pay with a credit card even with a 2% fee, if the cash back is significant enough it might offset that. And then in regards to I think your other, oh the annual fees, those are a lot trickier. What I like to tell people is we’re graduate students, we’re really good about spreadsheets and like details make a map of it’s gonna work out for you. Some of like my top annual fee card is the platinum card, it’s like 700 a year. I’m very meticulous about extracting every dollar of value on every cent. So there’s a way to get, they have one part of it is a $200 airline fee, so you can’t use it for airfare, you can use it for incidentals. The backdoor hack is the United Travel Bank where you like fill up your travel bank counts as an incidental which you can use for a flight and I find SFO is a United hub, um, as well as like a bunch of other kind of major airports around the country that you can totally one united flight a year that’s paid for.

Emily (11:36): Going back to my, my first objection about like meeting the minimum spends, um, and my comment about like sort of sticking with cashback cards which are usually have lower minimum spends and typically no annual fee. What I’ve learned since then <laugh> since I was in graduate school and had those kinds of objections was that using points for cash back versus using them for travel. There’s a massive um, ROI difference, it’s something like five times, six times, maybe even more of a difference between using those points for travel and points for cash back. So if you are really frugal like I am and especially was in graduate school, I actually would’ve been better served probably by um, using those points that I was accumulating through my normal spending and so forth, um, for travel purposes instead of for cashback purposes. But you know, I didn’t have the bandwidth at the time to understand the whole system. So that’s what you’re, what you know, what you’re helping us do here, which is really fun. Okay, so we talked about collecting points through signup bonuses through ongoing spending on certain cards, whether an annual fee is worth it, do the math, um, figure that out. Tell us a little bit more about the spending of the points and how, how you’ve done that in a really worthwhile way.

Brendan (12:47): Yeah, so it ends up being this kind of complicated optimization problem where you know the points are worth about a penny a piece, some are a little bit less, some are a little bit more and you want to track the maximum value. The best way I found to do that is if you’re trying to redeem it for kind of the lower end of the spectrum. So like a southwest flight, a basic hotel say you’re really only gonna get a penny, a penny 0.5 per point. Where this starts to really get exponentially bigger is your business class flights. Your five star hotels are like, uh, one of the hotels that I’m hoping to stay at is in Paris, the minimum is like 1300 a night but it’s, it’s 45,000 Hyatt points, which is a massive amount of points but point per dollar. It’s an incredible return on investment. And same thing for business cost flights, some of them are like three or $4,000 or international where if you use the points that way I’m getting five to 6 cents per point, which is five times then if you just used it regularly. And that’s kind of the hack is knowing those optimal um, utilization and when to kind of u- hit that value. And that’s the complicated part I would argue.

Emily (13:56): So it sounds like your, is your preference to redeem these points for like the more the step up the little, little luxury travel and not go for economy class and basic hotels and so forth? Or do you do both or like how are you using them?

Brendan (14:11): I kind of aim to get like a minimum value on my points. So for chase points I try to aim to 2.5. So if I do the math that the cents per point redemption isn’t gonna gimme that, I’ll kind of make a hard decision of like do I have to stay at this hotel? Can I find another way to stay there? Like not through, maybe it’s not Hyatt this time, maybe I’ll go to Hilton and check it out and then that’s kind of my cutoff for Amex points. I’m a little more, I kinda held them close because I knew I wanted a business class flight for Europe on a upcoming big trip. Um, so I kind of held them until I saw the moment and then I knew that that value would be there if you watch closely and it popped up on my computer and I snagged it.

Emily (14:52): Okay, this is a bit of a weird question, but you’re a grad student, how does it like feel like psychologically to be traveling in an upgraded way?

Brendan (15:06): Yeah, it, it’s kind of a big disparity sometimes where like for a conference hotel I’m staying under the university minimum and you have to be this like very responsible steward of like a grant. So it’s kind of a, and then when I do leisure travel for less money because it’s effectively free, I’m at five star luxury resorts, it, there is a little cognitive dissonance sometimes, um, to the point that through Instagram some of my friends thought I just had a pile of money in the corner and I had, part of the reason I’m kind of talking more about it is there’s not any money in the corner, there’s no treasure chest. It’s just really using points effectively so that we can, my uh, fiance and I have been able to say at some incredible places from Arizona to Florida and do some incredible stuff because of all these hacks and like tricks.

Gaining Elite Status at Hotel Chains

Emily (15:53): Now you mentioned earlier like stacking deploying of points with like having status at like Hyatt for example. Can you tell us how that works?

Brendan (16:02): Yeah, so what’s great about it is when you redeem the points it’s free to like, or the hotel becomes free. When you then have status, you still get your status benefits. So for Hyatt it’s a little bit harder to get status but when you hit their top, if there’s a suite available that’s in their basic suite, you’re guaranteed to get upgraded to it. Granted some front desk give you a little bit of a hard time, but there’s been times where I’m like, Hey, is there a suite available? I saw one on the app and they’re like, oh my bad. And then all of a sudden I’m in a 800 square foot room, two bathrooms and that’s the fun times at conferences when it’s like you have the massive room because every other room gets sold out and then in the morning for, Hyatt at least, you get to eat breakfast in the lounge or there’s not a lounge, they give you a voucher for the restaurant. So it’s been actually at conferences it’s helped a lot because I’ll fill up at the free breakfast and not have to pay lunch out of the grant money. So it kind of actually I’ll pick a Hyatt and like I’ve argued with like in present an argument to the like whether I’m getting reimbursement, like no, no, by booking this hotel I actually saved you money by the free breakfast and lunch. It allowed me to kind of offset the cost.

Emily (17:11): So I’m so attracted to this idea because I, I know just from my light study of the travel reward space that as you said that Chase redeeming chase points at Hyatt is like a really great value. Um, overall. So I just wanna know how do you get status at Hyatt?

Brendan (17:28): So for their top status you have to stay 60 nights in a year, which is an absurd amount of years. Um, not years, uh, nights there’s some kind of short cuts to get that number lower. One way is if every conference I pick Hyatt, I go to two or three conferences a year, three or four nights, that’s already kind of 10 to 12 nights. So already out of pocket I’m down to like what 50, 48 nights, use point and when you use points, nights count as qualify nights. So then I lower the pay like paid nights even more. When you have the Hyatt credit card, which is their credit card, they give you free, um, what is it, five free qualify nights. So that’s five more nights to hit the 60. And then there’s a few other kind of backdoor hacks where I can gift my status to someone and when they stay I get the night and that allows me to kind of lower, I don’t actually stay 60 nights a year in a hotel because that would be like twice a month, you know. Um, so you’re able to lower that number through some credit card hacks, some of, and then some taking advantage of the Hyatt loyalty program structure itself.

Emily (18:35): Okay. And is this something you have to do every year?

Brendan (18:38): Uh, to some degree the year you earn it you earn it through the rest of the year. And then so if you were to earn Hyatt globalist, I guess you couldn’t hit it now because we’ve only had 28 days. But let’s say you stayed 60 days, you hit it early February, I mean early March you would have it for the rest of this year and the following year. Um, so when I hit globalist, you keep it for the kind of, it’s 12 months plus the remaining of the year.

Emily (19:04): I can see this is a great um, program on their end to retain loyalty <laugh> from you know, frequent travelers and so forth. I think you also mentioned that you use um, travel hacking strategies for rental cars as well, which I’ve like never heard of. So how does that work?

Car Rental Strategies Specific to Grad Students

Brendan (19:18): So this isn’t so much a travel hack as taking advantage of what grad students may not know and if you’re at a large university system, your corporate like office for travel at the university negotiates a ton of travel deals. So I found out recently at Berkeley that because they’re part of the University of California system, they negotiate hundreds of thousands of deals. We have tons of travel offers that just by being an employee of the university you get one of which is uh, tr uh, renter cars. So we get I think 35 to $45 a day rental cars anywhere. What’s amazing about kind of stacking the university discount with a credit card is the Amex platinum gives you top hertz status which allows you to pick any car in like their luxury lane. So when I go to an airport and I need to rent a car, I don’t pick the car that I booked, I go straight to the lane and see what’s available and I’ve done everything from like a Mustang convertible for like 37 a day in San Diego to like we were going to the Grand Canyon. And I wanted like a supped up SUV, there was this like really nice all-wheel drive Buick, but I still paid the same base rate that I paid based off the university discount. And I’ve seen most public big university systems have something like this, whether it’s a travel portal or like just kind of your standard corporate discounts.

Emily (20:36): I had no idea about that. So like I’m not affiliated with the university anymore but I wish I had known that <laugh> back when I was at Duke ’cause yeah, probably they had something if you’re saying that. Um, most do but that’s, that’s like easy tip number two is just check out is there a travel portal for a university that you’re, you know, permitted to book through and yeah see what kind of deals you can get. And it sounds like you can use it for personal travel as well as university business.

Brendan (21:00): Most of them are, they’re tell you you can’t on the travel portal. So for Berkeley there’s some that are very clear that they actually get a, I think the corporate contract gets a kickback and they don’t care whether it’s leisure or for business. With business there’s some more benefits but with leisure you can use the corporate code at lease.

Emily (21:16): Okay, wow. Alright, this sounds really great

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Emily (21:21): Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats. This is a perfect time to book me for a workshop at the end of the current fiscal year or at the beginning of the upcoming academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/financial-education/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Using Travel Rewards for a $30,000 Honeymoon

Emily (22:46): Now you’ve mentioned your fiance a couple of times. I understand you’ve been gearing up for a honeymoon on you know, using these strategies. Can you tell us about what you’ve booked?

Brendan (22:55): Yeah, so I kind of have been in like points slumber mode where I’m just accumulating hidden and sign up bonuses, asking my fiance if she would also apply to get double the the bonus and you can usually backwards transfer and we’re gonna do a couple weeks in Europe. I’ve never actually been to Europe so I’ve always dreamed of going. Um, so I’m really excited to kind of stay in Europe for a very long time for essentially no money because every hotel has been on points. We got business class flights to and from for about a quarter of a million Amex points, which is like a big number but um, we’ve been kind of saving up for a while with our points to make this once in a lifetime trip possible.

Emily (23:39): Give us like a scale on how many points this took

Brendan (23:44): I actually, I wrote it down just because I knew that this might come up. So it’s about 280,000 chase or Hyatt points kind of. I had to combine them three Hyatt. They have these things called suite upgrade awards where you take your basic book reservation upgrade to the suite three Hilton free night certificates, 800,000 Hilton points and about 350,000 Amex points. So a lot across multiple brands, multiple credit cards.

Emily (24:13): Yeah those are like eye popping numbers um, to me. So how, how long would you say that this took to generate all the points for this trip?

Brendan (24:23): I would say depending on the card, three to four years depending on some were accidents. We were gonna do a big stay at a Hilton so I had started to get into the Hilton ecosystem, decided not to go on the trip so I just had this leftover treasure chest from like three summers ago. Then I was like oh this might be useful on a rainy day and it just kind of kept growing as different Hilton offers came out with different um, signup and you were able to kind of stack them and so I would say we’ve been Hyatt, I tend to use ’em more quickly. So the Hyatt I would say was more than like a year, year and a half.

Emily (24:59): And it sounds like even though you know, you’ve been, the points have been accumulated for around three to four years, but you’ve still been traveling some during that time. You said most recently you’ve been quieter on the travel front to like finalize all of this, but it’s not like it took you all of your spending devoted for three to four years just for this one trip.

Brendan (25:17): No, this involves multiple, like I’ve definitely stayed at Hyatt quite a bit in the last two years. Hilton, I haven’t touched the points I very much like that was kind of don’t touch and then Amex I didn’t touch because I knew, I knew I wanted us to fly to Europe in business class so I kind of wanted to have this kind of flexible chest of points to be able to find the right value and find the right flight route for us to get home.

Emily (25:40): Okay, so you’re staying for essentially free, it sounds like you got all the nights, you got all the flights covered, those, that aspect of the travel. Um, if you would have paid cash for that, how expensive is this trip?

Brendan (25:54): So I have a spreadsheet where I kind of track the value of like the hotel room, what suite we got upgraded to the business class might, when you add it all up plus or minus a little bit, it’s around $30,000 which is, I was almost shocked when I did the math. I checked it twice because I couldn’t believe that the amount of value we were able to extract and we’re averaging anywhere depending on the point like three to 6 cents a point, which is incredible value sometimes I think at the, the Park Hyatt in Paris, the suite goes for 3000 a night. So that was an incredible value for $0. Um, and 45,000 Hyatt points isn’t like normally a lot but at that cash rate, which I certainly would never pay $3,000 for a suite, but that’s what they’re charging someone for it. Um, so I was very amazed that it’s pretty much a brand new car of points.

Emily (26:44): Yeah, a brand new car, uh, I’m assuming over half your stipend for the year. Yeah, I mean it’s, it’s a remarkable, yeah, again, you wouldn’t have paid that but somebody would have for some of all these, for the some of all these components. So, uh, that’s so interesting and again that to me the cognitive dissonance is coming up of like, oh but you’re a grad student. Like you know, do you, you know, not do you deserve but like is it within your realm and understanding of the world to be traveling this way? But that’s the amazing thing that points makes this possible. My goodness

Brendan (27:21): And my fiance is a uh, she was a teacher and now she’s an instructional coach. So we’re both in a similar kind of like highly educated that middle class kind of group or like that it, there is a dissonance of coming back from a couple of really incredible resorts but it’s gone to the point that our friends know were the points people and they’re like, oh where are you off to now? How much did it cost you? Zero. And it’s almost an ongoing joke.

Teaching Other Grad Students about Travel Hacking

Emily (27:46): Yeah. Well on that topic, have you been teaching any of your peers about this? Are they receptive?

Brendan (27:52): So that actually led me to start a Substack, which is my weekly newsletter. I get a lot of questions from a lot of friends like we’re going to Italy, can you help us? So I was like, why don’t I just share everything I know in a way that’s kind of meant for grad students. Um, so every week I post a new post, um, every Wednesday and it’s some either hack some trip report and kind of different ways I’ve come to learn points and I’m trying to kind of write it in a way where to help graduate students understand um, and hopefully like I can kind of help people do this in their own lives with some of the hacks are very low lifts and it’s very much just sign up, search for the travel agency, get this one credit card sign up and you can do this end of year summer amazing dissertation celebration.

Emily (28:37): Yeah, I would say especially for graduate students who do a lot of travel or a decent amount of travel in the course of their work, like it’s kind of, I guess the impression from like travel hacking maybe from like the nineties or something was it was like, oh this is possible if you’re like a consultant who travels every single week on the same airline so you can you know, get the status or whatever. Um, and it’s just changed so much over the decades that this actually is accessible um, even for people who are making like a grad student stipend but especially if travel is a component that your work does pay for to some degree.

Brendan (29:10): Yeah, I think the reimbursable cost part is a really big part that even if you’re at like a Hampton Inn for 100 a night on field work, those are Hilton points. If there’s a Hilton double point promotion, you have the Hilton card, all of a sudden you can add such a big multiplier on something you’re getting, you have to do anyways for your research so why not go to that resort once summer break hits, you know?

Emily (29:33): Yes, wonderful idea. Okay. Earlier you mentioned some example minimum spend levels maybe $4,000 in three months, maybe $8,000 in three months. Um, how do you work it with your like typical level spending as a graduate student to meet any signup bonuses or maybe more like the more aggressive signup bonuses?

Brendan (29:54): Yeah, so let’s, if I, let’s use the 8,000 for the Amex Platinum as kind of like, that’s the highest one I’ve attained. Some tricks that I’ve used is you can pay your taxes with a credit card. They charge like a 2% fee. So if you use estimated taxes you could do time it right? Or if you kind of have the end of the year you have that big lump sum that probably might be able to allow you to hit at least half of it a quarter of it. The other hack I’ve been able to use for smaller ones is if you know you go to Starbucks once a month, 10 times a month, whatever that number is, you can prepay your year for credit like and gift cards. Same thing with Amazon. You can, if you know for uh, the holidays you’re buying a ton of gifts for both you and your friends or family, you can just load your Amazon account a little bit ahead of time and it’s all about the timing. So I wouldn’t sign up with the platinum card with 8,000 and just hope you’re gonna make it. I’d be very intentional with, oh we have the holidays in December, then taxes, maybe I’ll try to do them really quickly in February and then I can kind of get in that three month window or a big conference. If you have a international conference in France, you’re gonna spend a pretty penny. Why not use that towards a signup bonus?

Getting Started with Travel Hacking

Emily (31:08): My goodness. Yeah, most of the conversation around, you know, um, having to front travel expenses and conference fees for graduate students is around complaining rightfully so about you know, having to pay interest on it if they’re not able to pay off the cards and how it actually costs them money and so forth to do it. But you’re completely flipping this on its head and saying, actually use this to your advantage now it does take some savings, right? If you wanna prepay expenses, you have to have the money to do that. So like for you, is this a general savings fund that you have? Do you kind of tap your emergency fund? Like where is the money coming from for you?

Brendan (31:43): I kind of have a small revolving fund that I know that like I’m gonna get reimbursed for the conference or I know that this thing is gonna kind of come and go. So I typically would kind use it almost as like a flex fund that when I need to hit that signup bonus, it goes into it, then the tax or not tax a conference happens, I’m gonna get refunded a month later. Um, if that’s not possible for you, depending on your stipend structure, I would recommend credit cards are probably not a good because you don’t want to, as soon as you hit a penalty at interest charge, all of the point value really starts to get washed away really quickly that if you spend a couple hundred dollars in interest, even that $300 Hyatt Hotel, you’re not gonna break even anymore. So I’m really intentional about staying below and never, never missing a payment.

Emily (32:29): Yeah, this is definitely not an entry level strategy. If you’re a first time listener to this podcast, this is not, okay, go ahead and sign up for the loyalty programs. But like don’t try the credit card stuff until you have, you have all your credit card debt paid off, you have some savings like you said, a flex fund to be able to prepay some things or the conference expenses or, or what have you. Um, this is a level two <laugh> or further like kind of strategy. Um, yeah, I’ve noticed in my own life, um, I, I talk about irregular expenses quite a bit in my uh, teaching but now that I have a higher income than I used to when I was in graduate school. Um, but I also have different expenses. I have kids now I have a house, blah blah. So like I actually just sat down a few months ago and was like, okay, let me look at the cycle of my year. I can figure out like when are these higher expense, you know, periods it’s like March and April for me are like really high spending for some reason. It’s like kids camps, car insurance, like all this stuff. Um, okay now I know February let’s apply for a new card. Hit that sign up bonus. So I’ve just been more intentional about like looking at my year and figuring out okay, these are the key months when it’s a great time to sign up for something

Brendan (33:33): In February works really well because if you hit the bonus around April you can start thinking summer vacation that kind of gives you a three month window when resorts start to, not every hotel releases point availability the same. So three months out is a great time start looking. So that’d be, that’s actually a great timeline. 

Emily (33:48): Yeah, Okay. We were just talking about some things you have to have set in your finances to play around with credit cards <laugh>, but let’s say someone is ready for that, they have all the credit card debt paid off or they’ve never had credit card debt, they have some savings. What’s like the first, the next first step after signing up for those loyalty programs after checking with their university’s travel portal? Um, what’s a good first step after that?

Brendan (34:10): Yeah, I think I would decide what you want to use the points for and then that’s a really great kinda decision tree. So if you’ve heard today you’re like, I really wanna stay at Hyatts, that sounds awesome. I would really recommend the Chase Sapphire preferred. The annual fee is like 95 a year. If you book once through the Chase portal, I think you get $50 back, which offsets annual fee pretty much immediately. The signup offer anywhere from 60, I’ve seen as high as like 90,000, but that hasn’t happened in a while. 60,000 Hyatt points gets you four nights at some like really nice hotels. It could also be two nights at an incredible once in a lifetime hotel depending on how you want to use the points. And I would say find that entry level card if you’re like, you know what I, I don’t mind paying for the hotel, I want an incredible flight experience. American Express points are great for business class flights to Europe, um, or even going west, I’ve seen some amazing deals to like Tokyo from the west coast, from like Seattle or LAX, you wanna fly in first class. There’s some incredible deals to be had that way and if you know that’s you or you want to visit there for leisure or for family or anything, then that might be the route that you want an introductory Amex card, which might be like the American Express Gold, which is kind of your dining and grocery reward card.

Emily (35:25): Yeah, and I would say my tip that I’ll add onto this, it’s just, it’s something you mentioned earlier, but just like staying organized <laugh>, um, staying on top of this. So like try one card, get a spreadsheet set up or whatever system you’re gonna be using to keep track of like, you know, the date that you sign up, the date you have to finish spending, the amount of the spend, what you’re gonna get for it, um, what those extra rewards categories are for ongoing spending. The little um, you know, $50 here, a free night there, all that stuff that can come like with your annual annual fee and so forth. Like just get your system going <laugh>, um, from that first card and then you can kind of layer on and add to it over time.

Brendan (36:01): Now I tell people to kind of get your sea legs with your first travel card and then once you’re like, oh I know how to use points, I know how to transfer, then it’s time to maybe think about a different one but try it out and um, take that first day and see how great if it was to not pay for it.

Emily (36:15): Yeah, I agree. I’ve been like just very slowly making my way into the travel rewards points and miles hobby kind of space. I’ve like, I feel like I know like the Chase Southwest system for that free budget <laugh> flight kind of situation. And the next thing I have my sights on is like international travel. Now I don’t know that I’m gonna be able to go business class ’cause I have a family of four, but we’ll see.

Brendan (36:39): That makes it a little harder.

Emily (36:40): Yeah. But just to be able to take those longer flights to that, you know, the further destinations again for free or you know, low, low fees, you know, depending on the taxes and whatnot. Um, so I’m excited about expanding my own like practice in this area. So I’m talking to myself too as well during this interview. Um, so what’s been kind of the overall like effect on your financial mindset, on your stress, on your, how you spend your time of like pursuing this hobby?

Brendan (37:09): Yeah, I think for me in terms of financial, it’s made me think about return on investment a lot more because now every time we go out as a lab or I take friends out or grad school, I’m the first one to say I’ll pay just venmo me. And you can kind of think about it as a return on investment that it might end up paying your dinner actually, if you think about the points that you get in terms of personal kind of enjoyment of life, knowing that there’s this kind of once in a lifetime stay coming up at the end of the year really has helped motivate me to work harder in my like day-to-day life as a PhD student knowing that as soon as I finish this conference I’m flying to Florida for this really amazing to stay. Um, and kind of, you know, that’s coming up that allows me to kind of stress a little bit more so I, because I know the de-stress has coming where I can just sit pool side for a couple days.

Emily (37:58): I think that’s such an important point because probably a trait that’s pretty common among PhD students is not, um, giving yourself the kudos that you deserve for all the great work that you do and not taking the rest and the rejuve rejuvenation and so forth. Um, and what a great way to sort of enhance that experience to be anticipating it, you know, while you’re collecting these points, planning the trip, working really hard as you said, and then be able to actually, you know, take the vacation and do that relaxation that you need. And it’s, it’s cyclical, right? So like that’s so helpful. I know I didn’t take enough like vacation or personal uh, time, you know, when I was a graduate student and it’s really, um, it’s, it’s not that healthy to live that way. So I’m glad you’re kind of an example here of like a different way to like work hard, play hard, work hard, play hard, 

Brendan (38:45): And especially we have to to work hard a lot of the time. So like why not get that reward at the end of the tunnel, especially like whether it’s yearly at the end of the milestone. Kind of give yourself that reward.

The Grad Student Travel Substack and Other Travel Hacking Resources

Emily (38:57): Absolutely. First of all, share with us the name of your substack and then tell us some other great resources that you use in this space.

Brendan (39:03): Yeah, so my substack is gradstudenttravel.substack.com so when you go to that, you’ll be able to subscribe as soon as you put your email in, you have access to my archive of every post that I’ve ever written and every Wednesday you get an alert with, there’s a new post and it’s kind of a trip report, a new hack, a new trick and so on. And then the things that kind of got me into this space, um, there’s a lot of great blogs and kind of guides that get you in. One is MilesTalk, um, it’s a Facebook group that became, I think it’s a blog that became a Facebook group and now it’s kind of back and forth. He’s been really instrumental in kind of teaching how you can go from one thing to another and just stack all the rewards. And then Frequent Miler is another one. They do some awesome trip reports of, we use Amex points on this business flight to France. We didn’t like this so you should try this, another hack with Amex and kind of even like you read trip reports that people doing what you hope to do. So it’s been able to kind of gimme one aspiration of I want to be that guy on that plane or two how to get there.

Emily (40:07): It’s so much fun. Okay. When should we tune into your substack to see the trip report on your honeymoon?

Brendan (40:13): Yeah, so that trip report should come out probably next fall. Um, so I’ll be able to kind of write it up fully in the meantime. I’m going to, I started a kind of a six part post of like every little piece that went into it. So that would be every month or every two months I’m gonna kind of give a glimpse of how do we find the flight home, how did I use the points, how did I collect that? And then I’ll do a retrospective probably in like maybe a year from now where I say, this is the whole trip, these are the pictures, um, this is all the upgrades we got and everything.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (40:46): Awesome. Well we will look forward to that. Okay, Brendan, thank you so much for this interview. I’m so like inspired <laugh>. Um, but I wanna end with the standard question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve touched on on the interview already or it could be something completely new.

Brendan (41:05): I would say the best advice outside of like kind of dipping your toes in the water and like travel on points would be Roth IRA it. When I was a, I used to be a teacher, a older teacher kind of took me aside and said, Hey, you’re 22, you don’t know what you’re doing. Get a Roth IRA like first day. And I was like, oh, okay. Um, my mom had mentioned it too, so I should have listened to her in the first place. Um, but it really, if you think about what it affords you and there is kind of an opportunity cost for the PhD sometimes with retirement access that it really for me changed how I thought about retirement and finances and even invest in period.

Emily (41:43): Awesome. You know, I have to co-sign that. Love the Roth IRA for graduate students and really for everybody. Um, okay. Well Brendan, thank you so much again for volunteering to come on. It’s been wonderful talking with you.

Brendan (41:54): Thank you so much for having me. This has been awesome.

Outro

Emily (42:07): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by me and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

How Academics Can Apply Self-Compassion to Their Money and Time

February 24, 2025 by Jill Hoffman Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Danielle De La Mare, a career wellness coach and facilitator and the person behind Self-Compassionate Professor. Danielle recounts how she reached a crisis point in her career and personal life that led her to quit her tenured professorship. This crisis included a financial component due to her avoidant money mindset. Danielle describes how she is healing in the area of finances, especially in relationship with her husband, using self-compassionate practices. Danielle and Emily draw parallels between time management and money management to keep both in balance and sustainable. Danielle ends the interview by teaching two quick self-compassion practices that you can apply immediately to your financial life.

Links mentioned in the Episode

  • Dr. Danielle De La Mare’s LinkedIn
  • Dr. Danielle De La Mare’s Website
  • Dr. Danielle De La Mare’s Podcast
  • Host a PF for PhDs Tax Seminar at Your Institution 
  • PF for PhDs Tax Center for PhDs-in-Training 
  • PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List 
  • PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
How Academics Can Apply Self-Compassion to Their Money and Time

Teaser

Danielle (00:00): So the healing was really about like me finally just like, ah, turning into the reality that I had to develop a relationship with money and it was really scary.

Introduction

Emily (00:21): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (00:49): This is Season 20, Episode 4, and today my guest is Dr. Danielle De La Mare, a career wellness coach and facilitator and the person behind Self-Compassionate Professor. Danielle recounts how she reached a crisis point in her career and personal life that led her to quit her tenured professorship. This crisis included a financial component due to her avoidant money mindset. Danielle describes how she is healing in the area of finances, especially in relationship with her husband, using self-compassionate practices. Danielle and I draw parallels between time management and money management to keep both in balance and sustainable. Danielle ends the interview by teaching two quick self-compassion practices that you can apply immediately to your financial life.

Emily (01:35): The tax year 2024 version of my tax return preparation workshop, How to Complete Your PhD Trainee Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), is now available! This pre-recorded educational workshop explains how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. Whether you are a graduate student, postdoc, or postbac, domestic or international, there is a version of this workshop designed just for you. While I do sell these workshops to individuals, I prefer to license them to universities so that the graduate students, postdocs, and postbacs can access them for free. Would you please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, fellowship coordinator, etc. to request that they sponsor this workshop for you and your peers? You can find more information about licensing these workshops at P F f o r P h D s dot com slash tax dash workshops. Please pass that page on to the potential sponsor. Thank you so, so much for doing so! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s20e4/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Danielle De La Mare of Self-Compassionate Professor.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (03:12): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Danielle De La Mare of Self-Compassionate Professor. And we, uh, this podcast interview came to be from an unusual path, which is that we both work with Dr. Jill Hoffman, who you heard from, uh, last season in an interview. So Jill thought it was a great idea to get me and Danielle together and we agreed. So we’re doing this interview now and I’m really excited we’re going to talk about the intersections of money with other aspects of life management, and Danielle has a lot of unique perspective on this. So, uh, Danielle, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast, and will you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the audience?

Danielle (03:51): Oh my gosh, thank you for having me. Um, yeah, uh, I’m Danielle De La Mare and I have been what I call a career wellness coach to mostly mid-career academics, um, for the last several years, since 2019. And, um, sometimes I have early career academics, sometimes I have postdocs, sometimes I have later career academics that I work with full professors. Um, but basically these are people who have hit a wall in their career. They’re not feeling alive in their career. They’re not feeling joy, they’re not feeling well. Um, and basically I have a group, um, program that that sort of works them through that. Now I myself earned tenure in 2018 and then quit my job right after that <laugh>. So the way, um, I engaged with academia myself was very hard on my body. I was very overwhelmed all the time. I was very stressed all the time. I hit burnout. I had small illnesses all the time. And then I had really big major like life-threatening kinds of illnesses as well. Um, two of those actually. So I ended up leaving academia and I started doing this career wellness coaching work, um, diving into it, trying to learn about how to be well in my career and what <laugh> what I found is that those toxic work habits I, um, used in academia I just brought with me to this new job. Um, and, uh, the reason I left academia so quickly is ’cause my husband got a job. Um, he, he was an academic at my same institution and he got a job, um, across the country. So I ended up leaving and I was so happy to leave and thought I can start this new gig and do it all differently. And then I ended up doing the same thing. So, um, yeah, I guess that’s it. The, the core of my work is about self-compassion, like making decisions about your career, taking action in your career from a place of self-compassion. And I guess that’s me in a nutshell.

Emily (06:16): Yeah. Okay. I’m so glad to, I’m, I’m excited to hear more about this story. So like when you were coming up on those maybe the last few years, um, as an academic, um, give us kind of what was going on with you getting up to that crisis point. Um, you’ve mentioned health crises already, but maybe also about your time management, maybe also about your career progression, maybe also your money, like even more holistically. Let’s hear more about that.

Danielle (06:43): Yeah, 100%. Um, so yeah, physical body was giving out. Um, and I think had I been somebody who was a planner, like I never planned anything like weekly planning monthly. I never did any of it. Um, that would’ve definitely helped with my overwhelm. Um, my overwhelm definitely contributed to my, some of my health crises for sure. Um, so I was essentially just focusing only on my work, doing my work, and that was it. I was trying to shut out my life other than that in every way. Um, you know, I was a professor and that was my identity and this is what I did. And, um, I wanted to prove to the people around me that that’s, that I could do a good job and that I would do it well. So I would shut my door <laugh> when I got into the office. Um, and I could hear my colleagues banter outside the door and I wouldn’t communicate with them. I wouldn’t hang out with them. I could hear them and I would kind of have this longing of like, oh, it’d be nice to go hang out with them, but I can’t. I’ve gotta work. Um, I remember, you know, doing everything I could to, to push my daughter off on, um, my mom like, can you take care of Mar she needs, uh, she needs you today ’cause I have to work. Um, I didn’t look at, you know, I didn’t look at my weeks. As I said, I didn’t look at my months, I never looked at my money, I didn’t look at anything. The only thing that mattered was my work, and it’s because I had this core, core belief that I was incompetent and I was bad and I was wrong. And it was this impo-, these imposter feelings. And because of those, I shut everything else out and not shockingly got sick.

Navigating Money, Career, and Relationships

Emily (08:39): Wow. Wow. I can so see how your brand became what it is, <laugh> identifying that as the core issue inside you, your psychology, um, that was kind of like fueling all of this. Um, was there ever going to be an end point or with that like core belief that you were incompetent, had you not left your job, would you just have continued, as you said, shutting out everything else in your life to only focus on the work?

Danielle (09:07): Well, I think I did do that. Um, I, I continued to shut out everything to focus on the work even after I left. Um, I, I remember having an argument with my husband right after he accepted this job across the country. And, um, I was like, I’m fine leaving. This job sucks. It’s not for me, dah, dah, dah, dah. I don’t feel well, this is well after I had hit burnout. And so it, you know, my feelings were very different then. And I was like, let’s go, let’s get outta here. And he’s like, okay, I get that you want to start sort of this entrepreneurial work and I just need to know like, where are we money wise? Like when are we gonna call it quits? Like we can give it a shot, we can move, I can take over, you know, paying for things and doing, you know, supporting us, but then I need to know when you’re gonna, when is sort of the breaking point when we’re not gonna be able to do it anymore. Um, and I remember just getting really angry, like, this is my purpose in life. I’m pretty sure that we can manage it. We can figure this out. I can’t believe you want a number. What is this number thing? And I, I remember getting really, really angry with him and, and he was really angry with me. Like I, he wanted some clarity, he wanted some sense that, you know, we go into this. He, he knew like when the end point was he needed that. And I, I was like, um hmm. It’s like I was offended by it. Like, no, this is my real work. This is the work I’m meant to be. How could you, you know, question that kind of thing. Um, and so I kind of shrugged him off and he kind of let me, and he wasn’t happy about it and he carried a lot of sort of resentment about it. And we got here and I’m in Denver now where he got the job and I ended up taking another faculty job to appease him. But then I got sick. I got really, really, really, really, really sick life, threateningly sick and ended up having to quit six months later. And so it was this, like, it was the body <laugh> was, was communicating things to me. My husband wanted some clarity about money. I didn’t know how to plan my time out in a way that would like actually balance out my life. Um, I was just sort of fully focused on my career and my, my new job, or I guess I should say my new career, my new, what I felt was like my calling, my, my dharma, my purpose. Um, and I was very, very, very imbalanced. And so we got here and started arranging our new life and things just got more and more stressful actually. And I guess a big part of that stress was lack of money because I had to quit that job six months in and then I had to try to build a business and I refused to talk about money with my husband and <laugh>, like all this stuff was happening.

Emily (12:22): Was he more clued in about the money than you were, or were you both kind of flying like in the dark?

Danielle (12:27): So this is kind of how I think of it. I think of our relationship to money as like attachment style. If you’re securely attached, you, you communicate with like your partner and your friends and the people around you in this way that, that, that is productive and loving and truthful and those kinds of things. Well, we have that same relationship to money <laugh>. Um, and if you don’t have a secure attachment style for me, I tend to be avoidant. Um, I will avoid human relationships. I will avoid, um, relationship to money. I will avoid relationship to time. And he, my husband falls sort of on the other end of the spectrum and he is, um, he’s anxious about everything and he tries to push things into being, and it should work like this and it, and he gets really rigid about it. And so I would say that neither of us had a secure relationship to money. Um, and in fact we were talking about money in completely different ways, and each of our ways were like totally unhealthy, <laugh> totally, totally unhealthy, totally toxic. Um, yeah. And actually as I, as I recall this time, like I can feel this sort of pain in my body and the heaviness and the sadness. It was a hard time.

Healing and Building a Relationship with Money

Emily (13:51): Yeah. And I, I think we’re gonna keep the conversation fairly focused around money today and it, and its relationship with these other things, but clearly this was going on for you in multiple areas of your life, right? It’s not just money, it’s not just career, it’s, it’s well beyond that. So you’re speaking about this time in the past tense. So let’s talk about like, emerging from that or, or shifting it or healing from it or however you like, conceptualize that. So like, what’s been the shift from like that point in time to now

Danielle (14:19): Turning into the reality that I need to have conversations with my husband about finances, um, which was really scary to me. I, when we first started, we, we have these weekly meetings every Tuesday, although we haven’t had them for a few weeks, and it’s making me nervous. Um, but I would, I would get shaky, um, when we would sit down to talk about it and he would get angry and they were very stressful. And it was this like turning into like what’s authentically happening right now as we talk about money, when we, what, Like, I, uh, just like I said to you just now, like, I can feel this in my body as I’m talking about it. Like, I started saying that to him, like, I can feel the shakiness showing up in my body and I can feel like a sense that I wanna run away really fast from this and I don’t wanna have this conversation. Um, and so being really honest, and then when I was doing that, he started telling me how he would feel and often we’d have similar reactions like he wanted to run too. Um, so the healing was really about like me finally just like, ah, turning into the reality that I had to develop a relationship with money. I had to develop a relationship with all of these things, with my husband, with <laugh>, you know, with time. Um, and it was really scary. And, um, it, and, and if I compare that to where we are now, I would say that there’s still definitely work to be done in terms of my own relationship to money, but also my relationship to my husband, um, when it relates to money. ’cause that is like the hot point for us and has been for the 20 years that we’ve been married, like it always has been. Um, and so we continue to do the work. I can see when he kind of pulls out and it’s like, ah, I gotta go to a meeting and I can’t meet for our time. And then I feel like comfortable with that, like, yeah, yeah, please go and I don’t have to worry about it or deal with it kind of thing. Um, and so it’s very easy, easy for us to fall into that avoidant place where we don’t talk about it and we don’t think about it. And like I said, for the last few weeks we haven’t been doing it and I’m like, I gotta get back on it. I gotta step back in. This is probably why I’m on the podcast right now, so that I can like force myself to do that. You know what I mean? Like, I’m thinking about like divine intervention or something. I would say that so much of it has been about just holding myself in these difficult moments. I mean, just in the same way when I talk to my husband about money, I get nervous and scared and shaky. Uh, the same thing happens when I look at my, my money. Um, when I look at the actual numbers and I’m, and I’m tracking. And when I’m doing that every single day, which I’ve been doing, um, I really have to take a self-compassion break. I have to like hold my chest. I have to tell myself I’m not alone. I have to tell myself that everything is okay. I have to tell myself that I am competent and I can do this money thing. Like there’s, there’s some real stuff that I need to do to get in, get in a really good, secure relationship with money. Um, and I’m doing it, but it’s a process and I think that’s what I really wanna impart to people. It’s not just you look at the numbers and then you know, you quit avoiding and you transition and voila you’re there. It’s not like that. It, there is some healing work and some time. And to know that I think is really important.

Emily (18:02): I’m very actually impressed that you and your husband have both been able to like, identify that you want to avoid and that you want to run away and so forth. And yet have held yourselves to maybe not the weekly standard, but like a standard of meeting periodically and engaging with the subject and doing the work. Um, as you were saying, like physically to get to that point where you can have those conversations. I’m wondering in the time that it’s been since you have been intentionally engaging with one another around the subject of money, um, what positive things you’ve been able to accomplish, like what keeps you coming back to the table even though it has been so difficult?

Danielle (18:39): I feel closer to him when I can hear the way he’s thinking about things and the way he’s framing sort of our money story. And, um, and, and he actually says to me, thank you. When I tell him, you know, what, where I am and how I’m feeling, um, like he’s, he’s really valuing hearing me and I can feel just this, like, I can feel a real tenderness that he has for me when I talk to him about my fears and when I talk to him about why this is so difficult for me. Um, and that, that is, um, that is absolutely the thing that keeps us coming back, right? Like, wow, wow. To feel that sense of tenderness and, and care for each other when, when money for the 20 years we’ve been married, um, has always been, um, just fraught with pain and, uh, disdain and contempt and um, and so knowing that it’s hard but coming back feels really, really good. It feels like courageous. Like, I can do this and um, and I can and I can love fiercely and I can see he can do the same thing. Uh, so yeah, that’s what comes up for me when you ask that.

Emily (20:13): Hmm. That’s, that’s incredible. And it, it speaks also I think greatly to, um, your marriage, your partnership. Um, I think of there’s various aspects of our lives that we can share with our partners. Not everybody shares money and you’re not even necessarily talking about the dollars and cents, you’re talking about sharing the feelings and the fears and the dreams and so forth. And that’s, that’s really, that’s really precious and it can bring people closer together the way that sharing other aspects of your life can as well. This is just kind of one of those examples. I’m really glad to hear, hear that. That’s really lovely. Is there anything else you wanna talk about from kind of that first question, which is like, coming to crisis point and how you came out of that?

Dharma and Connecting to your Purpose

Danielle (20:58): I think this idea of dharma, I’m a huge Stephen Cope fan. Stephen Cope talks about dharma. He’s a yogi and a psychotherapist. And he had his own like mid-career crisis as a, as a therapist in Boston years and years ago. And, um, during this time when I was in my tenure track job and I was feeling all the stress and all the pain and my husband said to me, you like carry anxiety with you at all times. Um, I would have like these Sunday mornings, um, when I had an infant at home, I would go to the coffee shop and just read Stephen Cope, um, his work. And he had a book, what was it? I’m trying to see it on my shelf. Uh, I think it’s, I think it’s called Yoga and the Search for True Self or something like that. Anyway, in it, I, when I was reading it at the coffee shop on those mornings when I was always anxious and I’d have this from 6:00 AM to 7:00 AM ’cause I had a baby at home, 6:00 AM to 7:00 AM on Sunday mornings, was this like, ah, I can just kinda slip into this place where it feels like somebody understands me and the crisis I’m going through. And this is the person that also talks about purpose and dharma from a, from a sort of yogic philosophy, from particularly he, he, he talks about the Bhagavad Gita, which is um, which is this, this scripture that helps us to understand purpose. Uh, and so that was the thing I think that got me it, one, it was the thing that caused some arguments ’cause my husband didn’t get it and he was like, I don’t like this. Um, like, we can’t have a conversation about money because you’re so, like, this is my purpose. This is what I do, this is what I want. Uh, he thought it was so lofty and ridiculous, so it caused that kind of problem. But what it did for me is it the idea of having a dharma, the idea of having a purpose and then just like putting to work the health of my body, time, money, all of those things in alignment with that sense of purpose. That was the thing that kept me moving because those things bore me otherwise, like, oh my gosh, time, money, it’s boring, it’s dumb, I hate it, but if I have like a real why about why I do it, like this is why I do it, it for me it was dharma. Knowing that I’m doing it because I know there are other faculty out there who are having a hard time and I wanna be able to be there for them and I wanna be able to to, to heal, to help heal with them. 

Commercial

Emily (23:57): Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Connections Between Time and Money: Prioritizing Wellness in Both Areas

Emily (24:48): I would love to talk a little bit more about some of the things that you just mentioned. We’ve touched on this a couple times, the time management, the planning, the weekly plans and so forth. And I want to kind of draw a comparison between managing your time and managing your money and see how well, you know, strategies from one can transfer to the other and maybe in some cases where they break down and these things are very different and can’t be thought of in a similar way. Um, so tell me like, you know, having gone from someone who, who wasn’t doing the management of time and now presumably you’re much better at it because. You want it to be part, you know, enabling you to do what you’re here to do. Um, tell me a little bit about like your practice of time management or how you teach other people about it. And let’s just start talking through those analogies with money.

Danielle (25:35): I do weekly planning in my program that I have for faculty. And every Friday we get together and we talk about our career wellness or we, I have them meditate on their career wellness destination, this is where I wanna be. So like, let’s step into that, that let’s feel into that, what is that? And then now let’s set an intention for the week that supports that. Um, so, uh, I would say that as a person, I, I do things, uh hmm. I have to act on things before they sort of integrate. Um, so I had to do the weekly planning with my people for a long time, for probably at least a year before I was really getting good at it sort of myself. Um, and I, that same thing with my dissertation. When I wrote my dissertation, I had to be in the field. I did ethnographic research, I had to be in the field before I could really write my methods section. Like I’m just not the kind of person who can like, you know, put it out there, make a plan, and then, and then move forward with it. Like, I have to act on it, I have to feel it, it has to be part of me kind of thing. So I think that that’s the one thing, like just developing a relationship with the plan every week. And that’s the thing I say to them every time we come together, the purpose of weekly planning is to develop a relationship with our weak so that we can self compassionately protect ourselves, our future selves protect, you know, um, our, our needs and our wants kind of thing. So, so it’s this like, here’s our why, this is why we’re coming together, right? Here’s the, here’s the big why, the career wellness destination, here’s the little why, this is why we’re doing it this week. And um, and doing that with them every week, week after week after week after week really allowed me to integrate that into me and to, um, and to my own practice and develop my own relationship with, um, with time. Because before that it was like I would read what somebody said about time management and what somebody else said about time management, but until I like made it my own, I really couldn’t do it well. Um, so there’s always space for them to, to do it their way as well. It’s not just about me, but I do always want to remind us all of the why before we do the planning.

Emily (28:11): Yeah. So what I’m curious about in trying to draw an analogy with, we’ll say budget planning, right, is the analogous, analogous, um, area there, and it probably wouldn’t happen on a weekly basis. It might be more of like a monthly or quarterly kind of thing if we’re talking about money. But what I’m wondering about is when you and the people you work with are creating these plans, um, what’s the, I mean, you, you said, you know, we have to keep in mind our overall goal, career wellness goal, but then within that, are you emphasizing like accomplishing something this week or rather putting in time for something this week that will like move your career forward versus just keeping your head above water and getting the grading and, you know, all this stuff that doesn’t really move the needle? Like is that more like what you’re talking about, like making sure you make space for overall progress or is it more about, um, scheduling in time for, um, self-care or, or like, or all of that? Or like how do you think about maybe the different components of the week that should be present?

Danielle (29:16): Yes. The, the bigger picture is we’re trying to be more well in our careers. And so with that, we’re always scheduling in rest. You know, you spend three hours a week with each of your classes, well, there needs to be three hours of rest time for you, space that you get to do whatever you need to do to feel more connected to yourself. You know, body, mind, spirit. Um, so there’s that piece, but then there’s also the piece of like, let’s figure out what our priorities are. Um, this week I have all of these things on my list for work, but what’s actually priority and how can we, Martha Beck talks about, and I always use this, she talks about the three Bs, right? How can we, like, if you look at something and you don’t wanna do it and you have this weird relationship to it, like, oh, I really don’t wanna work on this thing this week. How can you one, bag it, how can you two, barter it? Like, and she says barter it is just sort of like give it to somebody else, right? Um, and three, how can you, um, better it? Like I’m gonna, I don’t wanna grade, but I’m gonna sit in this chair that I love and listen to music that I love while I grade. So, so, uh, and then I had, I had a client once say, and then we should do botch it, so do it imperfectly, right? And um, so, so we go through that like what is the list? What are your list of to-dos? Now let’s just get rid of ever-, let’s get rid of all the things we can get rid of. Let’s delay the things we can delay. Let’s, uh, let’s commit to doing things imperfectly, that kind of thing. And so now we’re gonna find our priorities for the week. Now we’re gonna find, um, like I said, our time that we’re gonna do rest. Now we’re gonna find time that we need to take care of our ourselves. Like, are you scheduling lunch every day? You should have a lunch every day. And that is not something faculty ever think about, right? Like, oh, I haven’t eaten for 12 hours. <laugh>. Like, that is common. That is very common. So those kinds of things. And just staying in relationship to the week and knowing that that weekly relationship is gonna contribute to the larger goal of career wellness.

Emily (31:33): I just love this advice on its own. I mean, if this were a time management podcast, we would just talk about it because I, I love that stuff. Um, but I’m still trying to draw these like analogies with money. Um, and I’m thinking about how when we’re planning a budget we have to plan for, and the typical term, which you actually mentioned earlier is like needs and wants and also saving. And I feel like the saving is more like the rest actually that you were just speaking about because it’s, um, it’s shoring up your ability to roll with punches in the future. It’s shoring up your own health, um, both in the long term and in the short term. And so that to me is like, it’s something that you can neglect on a weekly basis, monthly basis, maybe even for a year, maybe even for a few years. But it will come back with a vengeance if you never ever address it. Um, and it’s so much better to build it in cyclically like on a weekly basis like you’re talking about. So that to me is like a saving, kind of like saving, um, building in your own, again, ability to kind of continue to live your life with all the like, you know, the, the punches that you know, life is gonna throw your way. Um, and then also like thinking about the needs and the wants and the priorities. Um, like you were saying about okay, there’s maybe a list of tasks that need to happen. There may be a list of things that you want to spend money on in the course of a month, let’s say. And some of those are more important than others. Some of them can be delayed, some of them can be frugalized, <laugh>, some of them with a little bit of, you know, creativity. You might be able to use something for free or lower cost. Um, some things may just need to be deferred into the future. And so that’s kind of the analogy I would draw there of like, but with money, and probably with your time you have some big rocks that are just standard, right? Like you gotta pay your housing costs every single month. You have to spend a certain amount of money on food every single month. There’s gonna be some staples going on. But similarly in, in your time management, there are probably staples depending on what your job actually is and what your life consists of. There are some things you gotta do, um, every single day. Yeah. Do you have any comments on, on that?

Danielle (33:41): I love the way you just broke that down. Um, and, and drew an alignment to, uh, money. And I will say that money is something I’m still building a relationship with, and so I don’t think I can speak about it in the way I just spoke about time, right? And so, and I think that’s really important to say, like, it’s really important to be really honest about that. Like every day I sit down and I do something that helps me to feel inspired with money, right? Like have a little mantra or I tell myself this is why I’m doing this. And then I look at my, and then I look at my tracking and just like developing that relationship that isn’t a scared, shaky relationship, um, feels like the only thing I can do right now. And so having this sort of big eagle view of my money at the moment is really hard. But having that, that, and I eagle view versus mouse view, I’m again drawing from Martha Beck, mouse view is this like, you know, the the little daily thing I can do to stay in relationship and to develop a deeper relationship, that’s all I’m doing right now. And so talking about it, um, in big lofty terms with somebody who’s an expert on this feels pretty intimidating. ’cause it’s just not where I am yet. Um, and I, and I want people out there who really are hearing this and being like, oh my god, I can relate to that and I’m scared and I wanna get away from it. And, and hearing all the financial terms and all of, and hearing people who are really good at it talk about it all the time, that is scary. And it makes me wanna shut down. I want those people to hear me say that it takes time. And I know I just said it, but I wanna say it again.

Emily (35:37): Thank you so much for pointing that out because part of the purpose of this podcast is, um, and the listeners, hopefully regular listeners will know this, but you may not, is that I interview regular people. Like yeah, they may be regular people who are willing to talk about money, which is not everybody in the population, but I don’t interview other experts almost ever because I think it’s much more relatable, useful, actionable to hear from people who are more similar to the listener rather than more similar, like to me who’s like devoted my career to this, right? So like we already have one of me on the podcast. We don’t necessarily need two <laugh>, at least not every episode.

Danielle (36:08): Totally.

Using Automation and Routines to Support Wellness

Emily (36:09): So that’s kind of my like, uh, approach there. So I’m really, really glad that you said that. And I actually, I’m gonna think more about this mouse view versus eagle view <laugh>, uh, terminology that you just pointed out. And like, yeah, what can be done to draw the connections between the two? Like if you have an eagle view, how do you develop mouse? Uh, I don’t know, habits or actions? And if you only have mouse views and habits and actions, like how do you get up to the eagle view as well? Um, one thing I wanted to ask you about, again, in this analogy between like money and time management is I really love automation in the area of money, and I’m wondering how much automation comes into your view of time management. And by automation I could mean something as simple as like, well actually something you just said reminded me of, uh, Kendra Adachi of the Lazy Genius. Are you familiar with this brand?

Danielle (36:55): No.

Emily (36:56): Okay. So what you said earlier that reminded me of her is that, uh, she’s very intentional to schedule her lunch because she realized that she was not taking lunch like ever and that it was ineffective overall for her wellbeing and also for her work to not be taking lunch breaks anyway. One of her so-called lazy genius principles is decide once, and that’s a form of automation. It’s not necessarily carrying things out automatically, but it’s okay, I only had to think about this one time. This decision is gonna last for a while and I can just carry out that decision without revisiting it every single time it comes up. So that’s kind of a form of automation. Um, so yeah, I’m wondering what you think about that in, in the area of, of time management.

Danielle (37:35): Hmm. The thing that is really automation for me is when I sit down to do weekly planning, I have questions for inner wisdom. Because when you look at your week and you’re like, ah, I don’t know how this is gonna work and I still need to, to contact this person and figure this logistic out and blah, blah, blah, all these things are happening, right? And you don’t always know the answers to everything. You don’t always, um, know how to exactly plan. How am I going to find the capacity to get such and such done this week? Um, that might be an inner wisdom question or whatever it is, but if you just have those questions listed and then they’re not like taking up space in your brain and they’re not like, uh, and you’re not ruminating on it and you’re not getting, um, like scared about that. And then after you know what your questions are, you take space to go listen to what the answers are. So I’m gonna, now that I’ve done my weekly planning, I’m gonna gonna schedule some time this weekend to just go for a walk and really jus- like I look at my questions before I go for my walk, and then I’m really just gonna let the answers come to me as they need to, right? Um, and trusting that they will, and they will, they will, I mean sometimes they’ll say, don’t do this yet. Like pause and, you know, postpone this until next month or something. They might not have an answer in that way, but at least you have some kind of an answer.

Emily (39:02): The automation is the listing of the questions. And then scheduling reflection time again because you mentioned earlier like not, not wanting it to take over all of your brain space to ruminate on these questions. Like you’re just gonna give it a dedicated time where you’re like, I know from doing this process many times if I just have these questions working in my subconscious during this time, a few answers will arise

Danielle (39:25): 100%.

Emily (39:26): I’m actually also thinking about in terms of automations like routines. So have you developed, for example, a morning routine or a sitting down to work routine or an evening routine or anything like that? Or do you like those or do you recommend them?

Danielle (39:39): I do. I love the getting up in the morning and doing what I’ve been calling a trust practice, um, which is just kind of like, um, feeling into gratitude or feeling into a celebration of yourself or anything that’s gonna make you feel good. And I call ’em trust practices because they allow you to trust the moment they allow you to trust your journey. Um, and if you don’t do them, you often will feel distrust and like you can’t do the things you want to do in your life. Like you’re not gonna be able to make it happen. Um, so I would say one, some kind of a trust practice and usually for me, um, I am thinking about things I’m grateful for and I’m thinking about ways I’m really proud of myself and in the evening I’m always doing right before bed. I’m always just taking a second to really feel into my career wellness destination. Just like, this is what I really want and this is how it feels to have that. Um, and I do that just because, um, you know, those people who, who talk a lot like in the spiritual world, right? And manifestation world, they talk about that. And um, and how if you do that just before bed, you know, it sort of sets your psyche up for, for the next day to do things that are in alignment with that. I also love Cal Newport’s shutting it down thing at the end of the workday. Oh my gosh, I feel so much better when I do that, that kind of like, okay, I need to get this done, this done and this done first thing tomorrow. And then these are the things that I need to think through for the rest of the week. Like, and then now I’m gonna check the box because I have his like calendar. I’m gonna check the box that says shut down. I did the shutdown and I am done. And I’ve noticed that I don’t look at my phone as much. Um, when I do that, I just feel better and the whole day because I’m just intentional about how I spend my time.

Emily (41:41): I also have used Cal Newport’s, um, time block, time block planner, which has that shutdown, uh, checkbox in it. And I don’t always use it, but when, as you said, when I do, I certainly feel like a difference. And I’m actually trying to draw another analogy with money here. And this would again, probably happen on like a monthly or yearly basis instead of on a daily basis. But like knowing when you can call something good enough and done and that you don’t need to devote the additional hours that day. Analogously, I’ve done enough with my money this month. I’ve hit my minimum goals. It’s okay if I haven’t used every single last dollar optimally or whatever. Like, it’s okay to have some flexibility and to set your goals realistically, <laugh> like, I mean, Cal wouldn’t want you to schedule, you know, 12 hours of work into a six hour day. That’s not feasible at all. And so similarly, like you need to rightsize your money goals according to the means that you have at that time so that you’re not in this like dissatisfied feeling all the time. Like you have to get to a peaceful conclusion <laugh> at least some of the time with your time and your money. So yeah, that’s just another analogy I was thinking of there. I wonder if you could leave us with maybe one or two self-compassion strategies. You’ve actually already brought up a couple in the course of the interview, but maybe like one or two more that you haven’t brought up yet that we could use across different areas of life wellness or management, including money.

Self-Compassion Practices for Academics

Danielle (43:06): Yeah. So the first one I brought up was a self-compassion break. And this is, uh, from Kristin Neff and Chris Germer’s work in mindful self-compassion. And essentially it is when you know, notice you’re nervous, and it might be while you’re planning, it might be like while you’re planning your week, it might be while you are working through your budget, it might be something else. Um, maybe it’s, maybe it’s even your body, right? Like, I don’t want to exercise right now. And everything in me is like, eh, I don’t wanna exercise. And so a self-compassion break would be to just feel those feelings. Oh yeah, this is what it feels like in my body to feel terrible about this, whatever it is, the anxiety, the stress, the anger, whatever. And then you place your hands either over your chest or somewhere else, that is, that feels very supportive, right? You could like cup your face or um, you could hug yourself, whatever it is, but you’re finding a way. And I really like wrapping a blanket around myself, like really just feeling the warmth of the blanket and letting and, and doing it tightly so you can really feel it tightly. But that that sort of nervous system thing where you’re really giving your nervous system some soothing, um, and then you’re just gonna lean into your own hands or into the blanket and let all the feelings you’re feeling be there while it holds you or while your hands hold you. And then you just remind yourself, I am not alone in this. This is life and life is hard. And, um, everybody’s on their own journey and everybody deals with hardships kind of thing. Um, the other thing is you wanna soothe yourself with words. If you can find something that feels really good to you, so you know, this too shall pass, or I’m doing this for a reason, I’m doing this because I want to, you know, for me it would be to fulfill my dharma, whatever it is. Um, so just you’re, you’re holding yourself with your hands, you’re holding yourself with your words and you’re reminding yourself you’re not alone. Those are the big self-compassion, um, pieces to a self-compassion break. Um, so that’s one way.

Danielle (45:24): The other way is just pausing. I, I think pausing is huge. Like, I’m moving through my day and I’m starting to get stressed and this is happening and I’m triggered. I just went to a faculty meeting <laugh> and I’m triggered because faculty meetings are, I don’t know why they seem to be like triggering 80% of the time, but you walk out of there and, um, for many of us, we just keep, continue on with our day and um, instead pause, right? And I could do this too, especially when I, as I’m developing this relationship with money and I’m trying to heal my relationship with money,

Connecting with Dr. Danielle De La Mare

Emily (46:00): Thank you so much for explaining how to be more self-compassionate in these, you know, times when we might need a little bit of extra. And certainly I know there are people in the audience who are gonna be feeling this with respect to money and will appreciate those strategies, um, when it comes to opening up their bank account or meeting with their partner or whatever, whatever is, um, causing those that trigger to come up. So thank you so much for that. And if someone is listening and they realize that they’re kind of in the, the audience of people that you serve, um, can you tell us just a tiny bit more about how they can find you, how they can learn more about your work and what it looks like to work with you?

Danielle (46:35): Yeah, thank you. Uh, selfcompassionateprofessor.com. You can go there and you can come to one of our monthly coffee chats, um, where we just make space for career wellness. So we spend an hour every month, anybody who shows up and we talk about anything you wanna talk about, whether it’s like toxic workplace, feeling like you, you know, are burned out, whatever it is, you come, you chat. It’s, it’s free, it’s an hour every month. Sign up selfcompassionateprofessor.com, just click on Coffee chats. And then I also have Self-Compassionate Professor, the podcast, um, for people who, who are interested in, in that as well.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (47:14): Excellent. Thank you so much. And let’s end with the, uh, question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that can be something that we have touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

Danielle (47:29): It doesn’t have to be perfect. You don’t have to have it all figured out. All you have to do is be in relationship to your money. That’s all you have to do.

Emily (47:42): Could not have phrased it better myself. Thank you so much, Danielle, it was absolutely a pleasure to speak with you.

Danielle (47:46): Yay, you too.

Outtro

Emily (47:58): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by me and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

Sustainably Moving in the Right Direction in Your Finances (with Dr. Kate Henry)

January 13, 2025 by Jill Hoffman

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Kate Henry, a productivity coach for academics. Kate was a workaholic who equated her work with her worth until her declining health forced her to stop overworking. Now, she coaches grad students and academics in how they can achieve career success in a sustainable manner. Together, Kate and Emily explore several overlapping concepts and strategies between productivity and financial management. We also learn from Kate what it takes to start a service-based business in terms of finances, scheduling, and mindsets.

Links mentioned in the Episode

  • PF for PhDs Quarterly Estimated Tax Workshop
  • PF for PhDs Tax Center for PhDs-in-Training
  • Dr. Kate Henry’s Website
  • Dr. Kate Henry’s Newsletter
  • PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List
  • PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
Sustainably Moving in the Right Direction in Your Finances (with Dr. Kate Henry)

Teaser

Kate (00:00): For productivity, often I hear folks who are like, I’m going to write my dissertation every day. I’m going to go to the gym three times every week, or I’m going to do like X all the time. And then when they don’t do that, there’s this feeling of failure, this feeling of like, oh, why should I even try? I am not never going to get where I want to get. So in a a productivity lens, we would think of like you’re trending in the direction that you would want to go.

Introduction

Emily (00:35): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:04): This is Season 20, Episode 1, and today my guest is Dr. Kate Henry, a productivity coach for academics. Kate was a workaholic who equated her work with her worth until her declining health forced her to stop overworking. Now, she coaches grad students and academics in how they can achieve career success in a sustainable manner. Together, Kate and I explore several overlapping concepts and strategies between productivity and financial management. We also learn from Kate what it takes to start a service-based business in terms of finances, scheduling, and mindsets. By the way, I forgot to plug in my external mic during this interview, so the audio quality on my end is pretty poor. I apologize for that, and please listen anyway, as I believe the content of this interview is definitely worth it.

Emily (01:56): These action items are for you if you switched onto non-W-2 fellowship income as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac last fall and are not having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary. Action item #1: Fill out the Estimated Tax Worksheet on page 8 of IRS Form 1040-ES. This worksheet will estimate how much income tax you will owe for 2024 and tell you whether you are required to make manual tax payments on a quarterly basis. The next quarterly estimated tax due date is this Wednesday, January 15, 2025. Action item #2: Whether you are required to make estimated tax payments or pay a lump sum at tax time, open a separate, named savings account for your future tax payments. Calculate the fraction of each paycheck that will ultimately go toward tax and set up an automated recurring transfer from your checking account to your tax savings account to prepare for that bill. This is what I call a system of self-withholding, and I suggest putting it in place starting with your very first fellowship paycheck so that you don’t get into a financial bind when the payment deadline arrives.

Emily (03:08): If you need some help with the Estimated Tax Worksheet or want to ask me a question, please consider joining my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers the common questions that PhD trainees have about estimated tax. The workshop includes 1.75 hours of video content, a spreadsheet, and invitations to at least one live Q&A call each quarter this tax year. This quarter’s Q&A call is today, Monday, January 13, 2025 at 11:00 AM Pacific Time. If you want to purchase this workshop as an individual, go to PF for PhDs dot com slash Q E tax. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s20e1/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Kate Henry.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (04:13): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Kate Henry, who’s a productivity coach for academics, and I’m really excited to speak with her and find some overlaps between productivity and time management. And Kate, I’m just so delighted to have you on, and will you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

Kate (04:29): Yes, thank you for having me on. I’m so excited. Um, so again, I’m Dr. Kate Henry, and I am a productivity coach who works with academics, so graduate students, postdocs, professors, and I approach my work with a lens of sustainability, a lens of wellbeing, slow living, and really making productivity more accessible, which we need in the world of academia.

Emily (04:56): And I already see the same keywords that pop up in finances as well. So that’s awesome. Give us a little bit more like background about, you know, yourself, your finances, your financial mindset through, you know, when you were growing up and then like into graduate school

Financial Mindset From Childhood Through Grad School

Kate (05:10): Of course. Absolutely. So growing up, I’m from a small town in Pennsylvania and I grew up really modeled for me was a, like a working class bootstrapping mentality, working hard and working all day was very valued and, you know, tied to worth and respect for an individual. And so I was, I did that, I worked very hard. I started working as a teenager. I actually moved out of my parents’ house when I was a senior in high school and began working and sustaining myself then. And I really carried this, um, sort of attaching my worth to my work and my output and worked very hard, had multiple jobs in college and in graduate school. So I was very intent on doing things perfectly and needed multiple jobs to sustain myself in graduate school in addition to my stipend. So I certainly, you know, um, tied my worth to my productivity and the output and really approached work with a feeling of financial scarcity, which I think had been, it’s something that I picked up as a child and then also, you know, living on my own as a senior in high school and then in college. So that certainly influenced me, you know, across decades. And I was, I’m sure that many folks can relate to this who are listening, but working multiple jobs, really trying to bring in income in addition to a graduate stipend was pretty stressful as well.

Emily (06:40): Yeah, it’s something that I do like to encourage side hustling when it’s necessary. Uh, but I’m always like trying to tell people about that time, money, energy trade off on it. Like at some points certain types of jobs are not worth it and maybe you can find something with, you know, fewer hours but higher pay rate and, but they’re all hard trade offs because it’s just, it’s a difficult time of life where you’re strained in a lot of different, you know, areas. And so this mindset of tying your worth to your work and the hustling and everything, how did that ultimately impact your health?

Kate (07:14): Well, not well <laugh> as you might expect and as many people experience, and actually I’m a productivity researcher and I publish about that. Many folks in the productivity scholarship world often come to study productivity because they have some sort of physical, mental, you know, like breakdown and hit a wall with their physical or mental health. And for me, in 2017 when I was in my PhD program, I actually developed, you know, pretty severe lower back pain and issues with fatigue and chronic illness that wouldn’t get diagnosed for three years. So I was forced to stop working as much as I had because I truly could not sit at a desk for long and I had to attend so many appointments to try to find a diagnosis or to find a way to relieve that pain that I was experiencing. So I had to halt the overwork that I was doing at that point. And in order to find a new way to still be productive, I turned to external support. So I turned to podcasts, I turned to books, self-help books, time management books, and that eventually led me to start researching productivity, which led me to where I am now in my job. But initially having to find a different way to truly be an academic and work at my desk is what forced me to acknowledge that I was a workaholic. This was not sustainable. Um, like my body stopped me from doing that overwork that I was doing.

Dr. Kate Henry’s Business Origin Story

Emily (08:45): Thank you so much for sharing that. And I know it’s gonna be relatable again to a lot of the listeners and maybe not at this point in their lives, maybe they’re still in graduate school and their youth is holding up or something, but like at some point if you work like that, you’re gonna hit some kind of wall. And so how did like all these events coming together and this mindset and everything lead to you starting your business? Can you tell us that story?

Kate (09:06): Yes, I love to tell this story. So I started researching just personally looking at productivity and time management and self-help, uh, you know, podcasts and books as I said in 2017 and found that I was really, really into it and I was doing these little experiments on my own. And at the start of 2018, I was like, I want to explore this even further. So I set a goal for myself that if I could blog every single week, trying out a new tool, practicing it, writing it up, creating how-tos for others and blog every week for a year, then I could consider shifting my career path and going into productivity coaching. And it went super well. I did it for a year and then I decided to do it for a second year. So that was two years straight of weekly blogging about this, which both increased my knowledge of what I was doing and also just helped me to share a lot of free resources for folks. So folks started to get to know me and during that time I started practicing doing some productivity coaching while I was still in graduate school. So by the time I graduated in 2020, I already was prepared to start my business. I knew I was going to officially do that. I had made the decision to not go on the job market because I wanted to start the business and I already had all of this really great content there. So I started planning for my business around two years before I actually finished the PhD. But I also knew I wanted to finish the PhD. I liked my topic, I had a great advisor. Um, but it was this really nice playground, I guess to start to develop a mailing list and start to develop clients and for folks to get to know who I was as a productivity scholar,

Emily (10:50): I love how intentional that was <laugh>. Um, and it’s, it’s actually advice that I took like from the personal finance space, like if you’re planning on starting a business, like give yourself runway, right? So like you gave yourself runway both in the sense of you’re doing those early steps that are not gonna immediately, you know, see monetary ROI but are building you up to be able to offer that, you know, in the future. Um, at the same time on the financial side, we would say like, okay, you’re saving, you know, you’re, you’re getting ready for like potential, not having as much income once you, you know, commit to the business maybe. And again, I find parallels with my story, although you were much more intentional. So I was doing the same thing of, you know, blogging and so forth about personal finance and figuring out that people needed more education on this topic that was, you know, specific to my peer group of graduate students and postdocs. Um, yet, you know, there wasn’t anyone doing it. And so I was kind of like stepping into that vacuum, but I didn’t actually plan to start a business until it was like upon me that I was starting a business. So I didn’t give myself the same intentional kinds of runway that you did, which is amazing. So for the listeners, if you’re thinking about starting a business or even honestly like doing any kind of alt ac career, like this is the stuff you start in graduate school years ahead of time to lay that groundwork, to do the internships, to do the networking, to get the experiences because you know, chances are you’re not gonna get those things automatically in the course of your time in graduate school. So, and I also love it because I think you used the word like experiment. You were experimenting with the productivity, you know, tips and so forth, but you’re also experimenting with can I become a business owner and can I be committed in this area? And it’s that same thing for anyone coming up on a career change, like go ahead and experiment if you’re not sure what you wanna do, do you know, low stakes, little, um, experiments, different things as you go along, and then it’ll help you make those decisions as well as get you ready for that next step. So I just love <laugh> that how intentional you were about that. Um, we’re gonna get back to like what your full fledged business, like what you’re up to now in a couple of minutes. And before we get there, I kind of wanna, you know, riff for a bit here on like these parallels between productivity and finances and what, you know, what a person who’s maybe more competent in one sphere can draw into the other one and back and forth and, and those things. So let’s see, let’s just go through a couple different items, like what productivity principles can we apply to our finances so that we can give them the right amount of time and attention and they’re not <laugh> taking over our life?

Parallels Between Productivity and Personal Finances

Kate (13:15): Yes, certainly I am really excited about this question. So I really approach productivity through the lens of how can we make it accessible, how can we personalize it for each person? And in that way, I think about what I would call personal resources. So this is our time, our energy, our focus, also our physical health, our mental health, our mood, how we’re doing, and really approaching our productivity in a way that goes with the flow of that. So for example, are there certain times of day or certain days of the month where it would make more sense for you to schedule time to work on a particular productivity task? Like for me, I block off the last day of the month and the first day of the month to do my accounting and do my, you know, things like that. So that’s a way I approach that. But I think in terms of checking in with your personal resources and coming up with a plan that’s not going to overtax those or cause additional stress works for productivity. So I imagine that it might also work for like certain types of financial practices that would be potentially stressful or really need more time or energy or effort. So that’s one thing that, yeah,

Emily (14:25): Uh, what that is making me think of is actually sort of using that tip as as you just, you just gave an example in the financial realm. Like I know that this is a good time of the month to be working on my bookkeeping and accounting. So that could literally be in other areas of your finances too. Like especially if you’re partnered up like having that weekly, biweekly, monthly, whatever it is, like money date with your partner or if you’re not partnered up by yourself, that’s okay to do like a general check-in. Um, I would also say figuring out, like you were kind of just saying like what is sort of easy and natural for you within the financial realm and what is gonna require you to set aside some time and put some more intention behind it. Like I’ll say for example, at this point in my life, it’s like very habitual for me to like check in on my expenses, my spending, you know, keep on track, keep on top of those transactions. What’s been new for me recently is having to do a little bit more hands-on management of my investments because I opened a new type of account and I don’t quite know everything about that company and how their website works and what I can automate. So I need to, I literally did this today I need to like set aside some time just like do some actions and also learn how to automate those things in the future. And it’s not something that’s top of mind, so I have to like put it in my schedule just to make sure it gets done because I can’t leave those things, you know, un uh, untended to forever and ever.

Kate (15:43): Yes, of course. Absolutely. I, I feel that, and that also makes me think of something else that, you know, for me when I think of like ways that things may align with our approach to productivity and finances and personal finances is like outsourcing and having folks who can help you or automation programs that can help with that to sort of lighten that load. Of course, like different types of outsourcing are going to cost different things and they’re an investment. But that’s something certainly in terms of like, what can you streamline or like, are there folks you can go to who can provide you with information that will ultimately save you time and not needing to self-teach how to do it? That also comes to my mind and that’s something I’ve done before working with, you know, hiring professionals to help me learn how to do x, y or Z or like having an accountant do my taxes instead of even trying to do it myself. Right. Like, so that comes to mind in terms of outsourcing, which I imagine is super like also happens in financial world too.

Emily (16:43): Absolutely. And I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m not gonna remember all of these, uh, points to this like acronym, but with any sort of task that comes across your plate, you can either like do it, delegate it, discard it, like there, you know, a limited set of things that can happen like for something that comes to you and within your finances. Like you gotta be careful because there are certain things that you should not delegate. Like you do really need to be intimately connected in some areas of your finances, but others, like you said, preparing the tax return, you can totally delegate that to someone else. You should take a look at it once it’s done, make sure it seems okay. But the actual process is totally fine to delegate and on a budget, you know, that’s using free tax software, that’s using very low cost tax software that can be totally adequate as long as you’re, you know, comfortable with the interface and so forth. Um, I, a lot of people feel differently about this, but I just mentioned, you know, tracking finances, tracking transactions, I like to do that manually, but I also have a tool that helps me with it. So like I use Empower, which is kinda like a dashboard. It like brings all my uh, different accounts together into one place. So I have one place that I log in and sort of check on everything and some people might even be more hands off and they don’t need to even log in that often or check that often. I like to be a little more hands on, but that’s kind of like a personal choice as to how, what’s gonna work best for you in terms of ultimately making decisions about your money. ’cause that’s what it kind of comes back to is what decisions are you gonna make and are you prepared with the information that you need to make those decisions well and that amount of information’s gonna be different for different people.

Kate (18:07): Yes, absolutely. I mean I still, I, I use QuickBooks but I also have my like tried and true Excel file that I’ve been using for like eight years that I update individually. Right. So I think there’s like different ways that I can do that in like a low tech way and also like a high tech like legit way. Um, and that works well for me ’cause I get to feel like I have, you know, I’m really engaged and I know what, what my numbers are and things like that.

Emily (18:33): Yeah, and this also goes back to our previous point about like that finding that rhythm of if you are gonna do something like manual tracking, manual updates like once a week, once a month, whatever it is, like schedule it and, and find the best time because you know, maybe late at night <laugh>, like when you’re sleep deprived, it’s not the best time to be looking uh, at your accounts. Like you need to find for your, uh, chronotype or whatnot when you’re most, um, open <laugh> to looking your finances and making decisions about that. So what is another idea that you had about some crossover here?

Kate (19:01): Another idea I had about this was thinking of like trending in the right direction. So for productivity, often I hear folks who are like, I’m going to write my dissertation every day. I’m going to go to the gym three times every week, or I’m going to do like X all the time. And then when they don’t do that, there’s this feeling of failure, this feeling of like, oh, why should I even try? I am not never going to get where I want to get. So in a a productivity lens, we would think of like, you’re trending in the direction that you would want to go. So even if you don’t do something every day, you’re still, you know, developing a habit, you’re still chipping away at it. Some is better than none. And that’s something that I like certainly see being a successful way that folks can reframe their approach to their productivity and, you know, feel better about making progress even if it’s not some idealized magical way that you know, where every, all the planets align and you always have energy and nothing goes wrong, right? So trending in a the right direction you want to go is something that I think probably has a crossover as well with finances.

Emily (20:07): Oh my goodness, very, very good point. Um, sort of like what you’re just saying, like I think the phrase I’ve heard from other people in the space is like, start where you are. Okay, let’s take a, let’s assess where we are and take a small step as you were just saying, in the direction that you wanna go. But if you are gonna like do a whole schedule makeover or a whole budget makeover and think that you’re gonna be an entirely different person being able to adhere to this new plan, uh, it’s just not realistic. And especially if that causes you to feel discouraged and go back to you know, where you started from or even like regress from that point, like that is not helpful <laugh>. So let’s take like one thing at a time and move in the right direction Absolutely. Within your finances that could be like, oh my gosh, you know, you realize you’re, you’re kind of overspending and maybe you’re going into debt or you’d, you’d rather save more or whatever and you know you’re gonna be frugal in every single area of your life you possibly can. And um, it’s just, it’s just not realistic. It’s not gonna happen. So let’s, like this was actually some fun experiments I did back when I was blogging. Let’s take like one frugal tip at a time, try it out, uh, I would say maybe for 30 days and just see what kind of time and energy did you put into it? What kind of money was actually saved for, or you know, reduction in spending from it and weigh those against each other. Was it worth it or not? And then I like that to find period of time because you have that natural reevaluation point and you can really say, okay, I’m, I’m not just gonna automatically continue this forever, I’m gonna make sure that it’s actually working in my life. And then you can eventually layer on the ones that work for you, but give it time and give it space, you know, for it to become a habit. I’ll actually tell you within, ’cause you mentioned, you know, going to the gym three times a week, uh, I am gonna the gym three times a week and I was not doing that a year ago when I joined this gym and I, I gave myself some space, like I gave myself some time to figure out if it was the right place for me, if I really enjoyed it, how could I fit into my schedule. And gradually over the course of the year, I’ve gotten up to that frequency and that might seem like a long time, but uh, I’m really happy with it now and I’m okay that it took that time because I, I got to the point that I wanted to be with it, you know?

Kate (22:09): Yes. That’s a congratulations. That’s amazing. And it like if it took a year, that’s fine. That’s like the perfect amount of time for it. That makes me think too as well, like something for productivity and I’d be curious to hear your thoughts of how this works in the finance world, but like something like developing a new habit, going to the gym or let’s say for productivity like writing or you know, like applying for jobs or whatever it might be, setting up the external accountability, whether that’s through coworking or body doubling. So I was thinking like, oh maybe you have a gym buddy or you tell your partner, I’m gonna go to the gym. So then your partner can say, Hey did you go, that’s like such a helpful thing in productivity worlds so you can have more, um, more potential to show up and do the thing because you have that external accountability. Is that something, are there like ways that like in the finance world there’s like coworking or like scheduled things that cut- with others, like I’m curious to hear what you think.

Emily (23:04): I would love it if that were a thing and I’m not very connected to social media right now so it’s possible there are things like that going on that I’m not aware of. But no, I do think there’s, you know, that taboo around talking around about finances is in play here. And so if people find accountability partners in this area, I’m suspecting they’re gonna be like their spouse, their sibling, their best friend. Like it’s gonna be someone very close or like a mentor, you know, someone very close to them already. I don’t necessarily think this is something you’re gonna find a casual acquaintance who’s willing to do this with you <laugh>.

Kate (23:37): Yeah.

Emily (23:37): But I’m just thinking that there are probably some like sub areas like doing things that help with your finances, but the focus isn’t on finances, it’s on the doing of the other thing. So I’m thinking of meal prep for example. That is something that you could probably find a community that’s supporting you in that maybe do even doing some body doubling, you know, body doubling like Sunday prep day or whatever they call it. Um, and that’s gonna have a major impact on your finances, but you don’t have to approach it with like, yeah, that’s the reason I’m doing this and let’s talk about how much money we’re, you know, not spending on other things. It’s more just like let’s do this action together and whatever positive effects it has are sort of outside of that. So I could definitely see that happening. But yeah, it’s probably, if you’re talking money, it’s probably gonna be with someone really, really close to you.

Kate (24:18): Yeah, And I probably with productivity as well, like there are like platforms where you could like do coworking with like a random person who you’re paired with like from all over the world, right? But also often things happen with folks who you know, um, but yeah. Okay, cool. Body doubling effective for productivity can be effective in ways for finance as well.

Emily (24:39): Yeah, if you can find the right pers-, the right person, yeah. To be part- with it.

Commercial

Emily (24:45): Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Spoon Theory and Personal Finances

Kate (25:38): Now one thing, another thing that I thought of is, I mentioned personal resources earlier. So we were thinking around like everyone has their individual experience with their time and their energy and their focus. I’m also really invested in my approach to productivity working with folks who have chronic health conditions or chronic illness, chronic fatigue, long covid. And I’m thinking there around this term called spoon theory, which for folks who haven’t heard of this, um, this was coined by Christine Miserandino and the concept is that you, if you do live with a chronic health condition, you have a limited amount of energy to expend each day. So she used the metaphor of spoons saying like, you only have a certain amount of spoons that you can exchange. She said that ’cause she was out to dinner with her friend. So spoons were readily available, but really with spoon theory we’re thinking that you have a limited amount of energy units you can expend. It changes day to day. If you’re having a chronic health flare, you might have three spoons and you have to decide does one go towards a shower, one goes towards work and one goes towards, I don’t know, like warming up leftovers to eat right? And like some days you might have 10 and the concept here is that it’s a way to um, communicate with others like others who are close to you around your ability to do certain things, but also as a way that you can think of what is truly going to be accessible to you. So in in the productivity realm, I often encourage folks to think about like what is the type of day that you are having? Is this a very high focus day or is this a day where you have a migraine? How might you approach your product different productivity differently to make it more accessible? So you will like first and foremost take care of yourself but also you know, progress on your productivity in a way that feels actionable and achievable. So spoon theory can be a helpful thing when we’re thinking around what do I act-? What can I actually do for my to-do list today that’s going to be accessible and help me to move forward on my goals. So I’m curious like what comes to your mind when you think around like having to adjust your approach to, you know, your finances dependent on like if you, your health is shifting or you have much lower energy or you’re sick or things like that.

Emily (27:50): Hmm. Yeah, that’s a great question. I would say decide what are the real essentials within your financial life and what is an extra. So like I mentioned earlier, I love manual tracking. That’s an extra, I don’t need to do that at this point. It’s something I enjoy doing to a degree, but it’s not absolutely something that needs to happen. Now do my credit cards need to get paid off every month? Yeah. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that needs to happen <laugh>. So, but what I would do is I would automate as much as possible something like a credit card payment. It’s on auto. I’m never gonna forget or fail to follow through on that. So like I think it would be about like setting yourself up for those periods that you know are coming when you’re going to have fewer spoons and understanding like what is absolute baseline things that have to happen and automating as many of those things as possible and also having a really realistic sense of how much time or energy certain actions take. So like, um, I actually had a period in my life it was around, um, two years ago when I couldn’t do my manual tracking for a long period of time. I had, it was a sandwich generation situation that ultimately resulted in a death in the family and it was a difficult time and that was something that I could drop. Okay. I’d love to hear a little bit more about like your personal finance, your personal story and how finishing graduate school and becoming a business owner has actually affected your personal finances.

The Impact of Grad School and Business Ownership on Finances

Kate (29:17): Yes, totally. So I feel like I am lucky. Like I, my dad before he retired, um, ran his own autobody mechanic shop. So he was self-employed and I had this model of someone being successfully self-employed from when I was literally born. So that, like when I started a business, I of course didn’t know like everything that I would need to do do, but I at least knew like, yes, this is an accessible thing, this is something I could do and I can try. And I felt really proud to do that. And I also, when I started my business, reached out to folks, like hired a business coach to be like, what do I need to, what do I even need to know how to do? Do I need a business bank account? I really didn’t have the literacy for what you needed to do. So I learned like what’s a sole proprietor? Do I want an LLC? Just really was a beginner to learn that sort of stuff. Um, and I also was a little stressed to immediately, you know, like after my six month grace period to go into paying student loans and I have a lot of student loans. I did undergrad and then I did 10 years of graduate school, two master’s and a PhD. So that was also a real shift for me after having been in grad school for forever and not having had to pay student loans. Um, which I’ll say something about later when I share a tip. But, so my experience in my business was I need to learn like what are the things I need to know how to do to start a business and how do I navigate shifting to pay student loans? And um, also, you know, how do I sort of grow my income when I’m a bit of a newbie? So I, the first couple of years of my business I had part-time jobs as well. I worked as a tutor, I worked as a writing consultant and I did these things so that I could earn income while I was developing my books. So my personal finance experience when I started a business was that when I had been setting things up intentionally just to launch the business and to have the website and things like that, um, I still needed to be procuring that external income for a few years before I could shift to just fully earning income from my business. So that was a shift in my experience with personal finance as well. And I think from the outside perhaps people didn’t know that from the outside folks might just be like, wow, Kate’s thriving as a coach and realistically like I was working part-time as well to sustain that. So that certainly affected my personal finances behind the scene while I was developed starting to develop my business.

Emily (31:52): Yeah, I’m so glad you share that. That’s an excellent example of the runway that I was talking about earlier. So you gave yourself runway before launching the business if it, you know, in in the new way of like taking in revenue and so forth. And then you also had runway after that of like, okay, revenue’s coming up over here, but while it’s coming up I still need <laugh> some income coming in from another source. And I did the exact same thing. I worked like freelance, you know, part-time for several years after I started my business and eventually I got to drop it and that’s great. But like I was glad that it was, you know, there for me when I needed it. How have you been doing with um, I guess, you know, keeping your health in mind and of course the subject matter that you like coach in, but how do you apply that to yourself in your business?

Building a Business and Prioritizing Well-Being

Kate (32:34): Certainly. I was actually just talking to my own business coach the other day about this and we were talking about the metaphor of like, I’m sure you’ve heard of this, everyone’s heard of this, but like you have your jar with the largest rocks in the bottom and you put those in first so the pebbles can fall in the sand. And like thinking around like it’s really important for me to like approach my business where the first thing I’m thinking about is my own health. So when am I available to book coaching client calls? Like how many calls can I book in a day? What days do I need to have off in case I have to have doctor’s appointments? And really approaching my business with that stuff has to be the, that has to happen first or else I’m not going to be able to show up for my business. Um, so that’s something I certainly think about and I limit the amount of clients that I can work with and I also regularly schedule to take time off. Like if I know that there’s gonna be a busy season and I’m gonna need long weekends or need to take, you know, a whole week off or something like that, scheduling that in which I’m able to do because I have a service-based, you know, business. Um, so I’m certainly approaching it in that way. And also, you know, many of my clients, almost all of my clients have some sort of similar experience. Either they’re working parents or they’re working full-time and going to grad school or they also have a chronic health condition. So I set up my business in a way that, you know, can make things accessible to them as well. Like, so I’m thinking about that in terms of my availability.

Emily (34:02): I think one of the issues I know that I dealt with, I’ve talked with other academic business owners about this, um, that I dealt with, especially like in the first few years of my business coming out of graduate school was, um, setting pricing. Because you might think if you’ve never run your own business that you can bill 40 hours a week and just whatever you wanna make, divide it by 40 and 50 weeks a year and whatever it is and that’s gonna be your rate and it’s just so not that way <laugh>. Um, and so if you’re willing to, would you like to talk a little bit about like how you make that balance with your time but also make those pricing decisions, you know, again, keeping your clients in mind?

Kate (34:41): Yes, certainly. I’m, so this is like an excellent question. I’m so glad you asked this. I love talking about this stuff. So as a business owner, like once I started my business, I like it totally changed my mind in terms of like the folks that I work with where I’m like, oh, these people are really only making like 60% of what I, they’re billing me ’cause they have taxes, they have overhead, right? So that’s a little side note where I’m like often thinking about that now. So when I approach coaching, right, like I’m thinking of my pricing not just for the hour that or the two hours or whatever the thing is, but also like what is the extra labor that goes into this? So I think something I do that not all coaches do is I create really elaborate detailed notes for my clients and that’s something that’s going to take me up to an hour to do. So when I’m like scheduling out my day and making myself available to clients, I also have to know like that’s an extra hour where I’m gonna be looking at a screen and how many hours a day can I truly look at a screen? And so I’m thinking about like what I would call this like behind the scenes labor or this invisible labor that we might not think about when we are doing something like just scheduling for a one hour call. So I’m thinking about that in terms of how I approach my prices. Certainly that’s one thing that comes to my mind. I’m curious if there, there are other things that come to your mind as well.

Emily (35:59): Well I was just thinking that it probably was a great thing to have your parent as a business owner and being able to see how much work goes into running business aside from just the time you put into specifically the service that you’re performing if it’s a service-based business. Um, do you have any comments around like specifically like graduate students or people coming out of academia or generally being anchored at like sort of undervaluing themselves in this thing, in this, you know, um, consideration of how much to charge because it’s something that can come up for everyone at some point. Like whatever type of job you take, whether it’s in academia or later, like you’re gonna have to value your time and yourself and your skills in some manner and like, it’s just so difficult when you’ve been underpaid for a decade or more. <laugh>.

Charging For Your Services as a Business Owner

Kate (36:46): Oh my gosh, certainly. And I also think this as well, like when folks are starting a business, I know at least for me, when I started my business, my coaching calls were like $30 to $60 sliding scale an hour, right? And they’ve certainly increased since then over the years. So that’s something I think as well that like when folks are starting out, if the it is like, yes, you wanna get testimonials or you wanna build your books or you wanna get recc- yeah the recommendations or network like having a lower rate, you know, but then shifting to raise that and like I’ve raised my rates every year that I’ve been in my business. Um, certainly thinking about that and valuing that labor. And also I know for me, like there are truly, and this is one of the reasons I started a business, I cannot have a 40 hour a week full-time job because of my chronic health conditions. So I truly only have x number of hours a week that I can put towards my business and I need to make x amount of money in order to thrive. So like that affects my what I’m charging and like that affects my rates as well. Um, and that’s also something I think about in terms of sliding scale as well, like offering sliding scale. When I do that, knowing for me like what, like how many sliding scale spots I might have available or like what is the lower level that I can do in a way that’s not going to overtax me as well. Um, so that is something that I have in mind and like I encourage folks to, to think about as well, like how they can meet their enough number, how they can meet a number that can help them to thrive.

Emily (38:16): Yeah, it’s interesting like, because both of us are service-based business owners and we’re also have to apply our area of practice to our own lives and businesses like we think about a little bit differently. ’cause I don’t think as much about how many hours per week I work, I think more about how much money am I making <laugh>, you know, because, and I have that like bias, right? Because of my subject matter. So that’s really interesting. Let’s take a minute here and just have you tell the listeners a little bit more about your, your business, what you actually do with clients and how they can get in touch with you.

Contact Dr. Kate Henry, Productivity Coach

Kate (38:47): Yeah, of course. So I’m a productivity coach, I work with academics and my main offering is a six month productivity coaching offer. I call it, um, success and accountability coaching. And I actually created it because it’s what I wanted when I was doing my dissertation. I couldn’t find anyone doing it. And it’s a really hands-on coaching approach where we meet every other week, I take really detailed coaching session notes and share them with you and then we’re in conversation between calls. So it really helps to break down the goals, the projects that you’re working on. And I work with folks on dissertations promotion and tenure materials, book proposals, book manuscripts, things like that. So I only work with a, as this fits with our conversation today, I can only work with a small handful of folks at a time because of the time and energy and effort I put into that. So you can learn more about success and accountability coaching on my website, it’s katehenry.com, easy to remember. And I also have a free newsletter and a ton of free resources because I spent those two years blocking and I have that at katehenry.substack.com.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (39:54): Well that is so great to hear and it’s just lovely to hear your approach to everything. Let’s end with the question that I ask all my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And it can be something that we touched on early in the interview, I think you gave us a teaser or it can be something completely new.

Kate (40:12): Yes. So I’m thinking with this, like what I wish I had known when I was starting my PhD. That’s what I, I thought of with this was like, I wish that- I did not have financial literacy and I did not understand how things worked. I did not understand credit cards, I did not understand student loans. I did not understand how to buy a car. And um, I really do like now me wishes that back then me had like even gone to this, the financial aid office on campus and been like, can you under-, can you explain to me how student loans work? Like I wish I had known that I could have paid my student loan interest while I was still in graduate school and like things that would have really shifted that experience for me that I’m dealing with now with paying off loans. Um, so that’s something that comes to my mind is really just like, how can you access other folks who can help to inform you of things that will set you up for success, whether that is with loans or whether that’s with retirement or interest or how those things work. Um, and yeah, I feel like that all-, that’s what I did when I finished my PhD and I started my business as well, reaching out to folks and sort of, um, going towards experts who could help me to streamline and teach me things that I didn’t know on my own.

Emily (41:26): And this is not a criticism of you because I think this is absolutely natural what you did, but when you were in graduate school, those on campus resources were free for you. They were included in the whole package that was going on. And if you had asked those questions to financial aid or financial wellness or whatever it’s called on your campus, maybe you could have taken some different steps and maybe you could have, you know, learned more along the way and not have to have paid the higher price that comes, you know, in your thirties, et cetera. Uh, once you have the, the big job and, and so forth for, you know, similar kinds of advice or education or content, right? So like it’s like with compound interest, like that early investment just keeps compounding and growing and uh, if you don’t do it early, then you gotta do more later, right? So I am really glad you shared that. Again, not a criticism because I think it’s pretty much what everybody does <laugh>, but, uh, I will say that I have had the opportunity to meet many, many people who work, um, in financial aid offices in similar kinds of roles where they help students with their finances and they are lovely. Everyone I’ve met has been wonderful and approachable and just eager, eager, eager to help. Um, even in areas that seem a little bit off of maybe what they normally do. So like you could walk into financial aid and ask a question that’s not precisely about financial aid and they, they’ll either help you or they’ll point you in a direction where you can get help from someone else. Um, and you know, the more you ask those questions, the more these people on campuses realize that graduate students and postdocs need this kind of support as well, which of course is the drum that I’ve been banging for many years now. So it’s all helpful to our community just to get more attention on making those early educational investments that turn into financial investments, um, you know, early, early on in our career. So thank you so much for, um, that advice and it’s been wonderful to speak with you and I’m really looking forward to listeners getting to hear this.

Kate (43:16): Awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me on.

Outtro

Emily (43:31): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by me and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

How This PhD Student and Her Higher-Earning Partner Manage Joint and Separate Finances

February 19, 2024 by Jill Hoffman Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Tram Pham, a 3rd-year PhD student in economics at Uppsala University in Sweden. Tram describes the financial aspect of her relationship with her boyfriend, Markus, from discussing money on their first date to how they structure their joint and separate accounts now that they live together. Even though Tram is the lower earner, she came into the relationship with savings and has guided Markus into starting to save for joint goals, such as emergencies, vacations, and gifts. She knows that her future in academia is likely to require flexibility, so she saves for the unknown. Tram and Markus have learned how to moderate one another’s natural saver/spender tendencies so that they both plan for their finances and live in the moment.

Links mentioned in the Episode

  • PF for PhDs Tax Workshops (Sponsored) 
  • PF for PhDs Tax Workshops (Individual Purchase)
  • PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List 
  • PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
  • Tram Pham Website
How This PhD Student and Her Higher-Earning Partner Manage Joint and Separate Finances

Teaser

00:00 Tram: I try and always try to make our saving plans fun and interesting because for me, from the beginning, I’m more just focusing on saving, saving, saving, even though I don’t know what I’m saving for. And Markus is like focusing on living, living, living, just living at the moment. So right now we are trying at least to balance those things. Hey, I save, but also I don’t forget to live. And those savings will be spent on the things that I love to do or make my life more meaningful.

Introduction

00:36 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

01:04 Emily: This is Season 17, Episode 4, and today my guest is Tram Pham, a 3rd-year PhD student in economics at Uppsala University in Sweden. Tram describes the financial aspect of her relationship with her boyfriend, Markus, from discussing money on their first date to how they structure their joint and separate accounts now that they live together. Even though Tram is the lower earner, she came into the relationship with savings and has guided Markus into starting to save for joint goals, such as emergencies, vacations, and gifts. She knows that her future in academia is likely to require flexibility, so she saves for the unknown. Tram and Markus have learned how to moderate one another’s natural saver/spender tendencies so that they both plan for their finances and live in the moment.

01:51 Emily: The tax year 2023 version of my tax return preparation workshop, How to Complete Your PhD Trainee Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), is now available! This pre-recorded educational workshop explains how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. Whether you are a graduate student, postdoc, or postbac, domestic or international, there is a version of this workshop designed just for you. While I do sell these workshops to individuals, I prefer to license them to universities so that the graduate students, postdocs, and postbacs can access them for free. Would you please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, fellowship coordinator, etc. to request that they sponsor this workshop for you and your peers? You can find more information about licensing these workshops at P F f o r P h D s dot com slash tax dash workshops. Please pass that page on to the potential sponsor. Thank you so, so much for doing so! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s17e4/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Tram Pham.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:16 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Tram Pham. She is a therapist. third year PhD student at Uppsala University in Sweden, uh, in economics. And we are going to talk today about finances in a relationship. And this is going to be exciting because Tram and her partner do something very different than what I do and what I’ve covered on the podcast in the past. So I like this new perspective. So Tram, would you please introduce yourself a little bit further? 

03:39 Tram: Thank you so much, Emily, for having me. Uh, I am Tram Pham, a PhD student. I am a student in economics at Uppsala University in Sweden, yeah, very far away. Uh, and, uh, I am doing research in labor and health economics. I am originally from Vietnam. Uh, as you said, currently I am staying with my boyfriend partner in Stockholm in Sweden. 

04:05 Emily: Excellent. Um, and your partner’s name is Markus, is that right? 

04:08 Tram: Yeah. So he is a Swedish, yeah. 

04:11 Emily: All right. And what does Markus do for his profession? 

04:15 Tram: So he is a machine learning engineer. And he is, uh, yeah, so he just had his master finish it two, three years ago. And now he’s working in a real job. 

04:28 Emily: Gotcha. But he spent some time in academia, so he understands. Well, we’ll get into it, right? So how did you two first meet? 

04:35 Tram: So, yeah, so we was introduced to each other through our mutual friend.

Early Financial Conversations With Your Partner

04:42 Emily: Awesome. And so when you started dating, when you first got together, how soon did conversations around finances or conversations around lifestyle, how did that start? 

04:53 Tram: So, uh, I am very conscious in finance and I have been reading a lot of books and also practicing finance independence for a long time. So I think that finance is a really important topic for me. So I brought it up in the first date. Yes. So the first day meeting Markus, I was asking him about his view about finance, how he is practicing, uh, with his own money. Of course, it’s not very in detail, but like just a brief perspective to see whether he also considered that finance is important or not. And in the second date, we asked more question about, Hey, what do you like to do in your life? And, uh, what do you think that finance can help you to achieve that? And how have you planned out and things like that? So yeah, very early in the dating process. 

05:47 Emily: Okay. I’m, I’m really curious about this now. Um, because the way you phrase that it sounded very interviewee, but is that how it, is that how it felt for him or for you in the moment? Or was it more like casual, like I’m going to ask a little subtle question about finances and, you know, 30 minutes later, maybe another little question, or was it really like, no, we need to be on the same page right now? 

06:09 Tram: Yeah. So now that you mentioned that, I think for me, it came out really naturally because I like talking about personal finance with my friends and things, but yes, with Markus, it’s felt like an interview, like I came in as a teacher or someone interviewing him about his perspective about finance. So from the beginning, he was a bit hesitant, of course. And also he was like, yes, but then I. I think that I explained it to him that, yes, I’m not coming here trying to like interview you or something, just that because I am more serious about relationship. I don’t want to play around. I’m coming and searching for a partner and commitment and things. And I think finance is important for a relationship. That’s why I’m asking these questions. So yeah, I think after my explanation, he became a little bit more open, but of course also not like, in very details, as I wished it could be, so.

07:11 Emily: And in these early conversations, what kind of answers were you getting? Like, were you seeing that he was kind of on the same page as you, although maybe a little bit more reticent to share? Or was it like, oh, no, I’m actually detecting some differences in practices or differences in values? 

07:26 Tram: Yes. So. I think that Markus know what is fire movement, what is a financial independence movement, but also in general, he and me, even, even though I am super interested in personal finance, but I don’t consider money as the most important part in my life. I just want to have the freedom and the opportunity to choose whenever I want to have. So I think for that, Markus and I was really on the same page. Like we think that yes, money is important because it allows us to, to live the life we want. And, but also in the just first few days, I could not ask in very detail about, Hey, how much you earn? Or like, what is your expenses? What is your saving? And that kind of thing. Just that On the surface, yes, it’s, it’s very similar. Hmm.

08:18 Emily: So, I haven’t been in the dating pool for a very long time, um, but what I remember reading in terms of like advice for talking about finances was to share first, like to share your, if you want to take that step with the person you’re dating, like, okay, we’re going to talk about our income or our debt or whatever. Like. You reveal first and you set the model and the tone. Is that what you did? Were you more sort of leading the way in the openness? 

08:42 Tram: Yeah, so the thing about Sweden is that I think that the gap between different incomes is not a lot. It’s not very much, right? And also kind of like pay and things like is kind of very transparent and also our mutual friend is also a very close friend to Markus and she and her husband also are doing PhD. So I think that Markus kind of has some sense about the salary range that I am in. So yes, I didn’t specifically say how much I earn, but I, I expect all I could hypothesize that he knew kind of not exact, uh, amount, but kind of the range. Yes. But for me, I had zero, zero clue about how much he’s earning. 

The Interplay Between Relationship, Financial, and Career Goals

09:28 Emily: So you mentioned earlier that Markus had a master’s you’re in your PhD program. And that one of your values, shared values was freedom, being able to do what you want to do, having money be a tool along that path. I’m wondering how you think about your being in a PhD program at this time, and maybe what your future career plans are and how that interplays with like the fire pursuit. And then the next layer on top of that, of course, is how Markus would feel about you being currently in academia or maybe in the future. So can you talk more about how you think about that with your finances and your career and the relationship and all that stuff? 

10:05 Tram: Um, so I think that I, I really love doing research. I love my job and everything like that. But I am also aware that I, I cannot earn a lot of money or like become a millionaire just being a researcher. So, uh, since my childhood, I, my parents had taught me to save money and that kind of thing a lot. So like, I am always a saver. Yeah, regardless of how much I earn, I usually try to save at least 10 percent or even sometimes more than 50%. And also because the prospect of PhD, especially after PhD, if we want to get a good job. we have to be willing to move. So all of these also went into my consideration that, hey, I need to save money because I don’t know where I would end up to be. And also, how about the cost of moving? And, uh, how about later if I want to have babies? If I move so much, I would not receive the social benefit and that kind of thing. So for me, saving is important. And I have always been practicing that. Uh, at the same time, I think that like, Sweden has a really good social assistance, uh, security and that kind of thing. So, usually, like, okay, so I am generalizing here, but I think at least with Markus and my friends, they don’t, they don’t save a lot. Because they don’t think that it’s necessary to save even. Because, uh, after the salary, a large, uh, a large part of your salary already go for the tax and which will be paid for your pension and unemployment insurance later. So at least in term of Markus, before meeting me, he had zero saving because he didn’t think that it’s important. Yes. He think that money is important, but maybe now he’s young and also in the tech sector, he’s earning a lot. So, uh, why should I save? I, I can do that later or something like that. So yes, so when we, uh, entered relationship, I already had some amount of saving, even though my salary is always much lower than Markus and he with large salary, but, uh, yes, he, he didn’t have any saving at that time. And. As I said, I was really very transparent and honest from the beginning, so I also brought up these topics with him from the first few days. Hey, I have to move a lot. Of course, I would love to stay in Sweden, but, uh, I’m not sure whether I have that option. After my PhD,and also, yes, my salary would generally be lower than yours in, in good times. I mean, assuming that he still has a job because yes, in fact, the turnover is also very high. Uh, he understand that. I think that’s the thing that I like so much about Markus also, really very open and also trying to learn things. So yes, because of that, even though he aware of all of these things, but he know that, as long as we are more suitable in our values, and we want to build a family together. It doesn’t matter. So, yeah. 

13:20 Emily: Okay. Yeah. So you’re preparing for the possibility of moving out of Sweden, um, depending on where the job opportunities are. And yeah, like that is, that is a really different, um, perspective, I think for people who are, you know, like your, your peers, maybe who are Swedish, like who are used to having that social safety net.  I mean, if you moved to the U. S., it’s going to be all on you. Um, right. So that’s just so interesting to think about, like, depending on that, but making that assumption that you’re always going to be living in that country and it’s always going to have the same kinds of benefits. And you’re introducing this, like, well, Maybe I won’t always live here and why not prepare for that like sort of uncertain or like the possibility of a change in the future. And I just think it’s so interesting as you’ve been talking how you’re the lower earning, uh, partner, but you have quite a bit of financial acumen. Um, and least maybe not now, but maybe when you started the relationship more so than Markus did. It depends, of course, on the things that we’ve been talking about, like whether or not it’s necessary to save or to what degree, depending on where you live and so forth. Um, but yeah, I just think it’s interesting, you know, you’re, you’re coming in with savings with the lower income and he doesn’t have that even with the higher income.

Combining Finances With Your Partner

14:27 Emily: So let’s fast forward a little bit. You two live together now, right? And you have some, some degree of joint finances. Can you talk about that process of sort of, uh, joining up more financially?

14:38 Tram: Mm hmm. So, yes, I think as you already mentioned, at the moment we have shared economy. So, um, how it happened is that when we was considering whether to move in or not, Uh, I talk with a lot of my friends about finance and how they are doing with their partner, whether they share economy or whether they separate it. So I think that most of my Swedish friends that I talk with, they have a separate, uh, economy. But most of the Asian friends that I talk with, they have shared economies. So I could hear a lot of pros and cons also about different perspectives. And personally, I think that I also prefer the joint economy. And then I discussed that with Markus, and I discussed why I think it’s a good thing. And because I think that we are living in one household, so it’s better to join. We also will be able to check and see what each other are doing. And if we have a shared, uh, goal of buying an apartment or later moving somewhere, all of these will need to be shared. So I think it will be much also transparent and honest. It’s, it’s, it’s good. And yes, as I said, from the beginning, Markus is really, really open and supportive. He just say, yeah, let’s test it out. I don’t know how it will be, but, uh, let, let’s try it. And if, uh, it doesn’t, um. If it’s not suitable for us, then we can adjust or even change to another method. So yeah, so far we have been practicing joint, uh, account, and I think that we are doing quite well on that. 

16:22 Emily: So I love that, uh, openness to experimentation. So that’s, yeah, it’s a great attitude. So you have, it sounds like. A joint account, is that right? Is it like joint checking, joint savings? 

16:35 Tram: For example, my salary will go directly to my separate account, and Markus’ salary will go to his separate account, but then we already calculated like a per month how much we need as a fixed expenses, like for the bills and for the groceries for the saving. So I think 90 percent of our joint salary will go to the joint account. So we have like 10 percent left. That means that 5 percent for me and 5 percent for him. So that we can just spend as our individual allowance, like if we want to buy gift for each other, or if we want to hang out with friends, so we don’t have to ask for each other, uh, opinions or something like that. So the 90 percent will be shared between saving, and yes, I can explain that later, but the saving and the bills, the grocery, and also another account called play account, like something that we can use together when we hang out together. And for us, we eat out every week once just so that, uh, yes, it’s, it’s also helps us to understand why money is important and also like. Yeah. Energize us. 

17:57 Emily: Okay. So what I’m hearing is that, um, your incomes start separate, but then almost all of them become combined, um, into this joint, joint checking and joint savings model. Um, so the separate, what you keep separate is very, a small percentage of your overall income. Um, and I think the, the listeners will like be curious about this because you mentioned that Markus has a higher salary than you do. How you both, I understand mechanically how it’s working, but how you both are like feeling about it or how he feels about it. Right. Because he’s. Subsidizing, you know, your lifestyle to a degree. So, like, have you had conversations about that?  

18:32 Tram: Yeah, yeah. So, uh, I think, yes, because that was also my concern from the beginning. Hey, I am having a much lower salary. Would it be fair for you also to, to give the majority of your salary? And so far, I would say that, let’s say, if our joint account is 100%, then I am contributing around 35 ish percent, and his one is 65%. Uh, yes, Markus agrees with that, of course, but also because he entered into the relationship with a small loan, also from his student loan. So he thinks that it would be fair for him to put more in the joint account because from that we also take out some part to pay for his private loan.

19:20 Emily: I see. Okay.

Commercial

19:24 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Savings Goals and Using Sinking Funds

20:16 Emily: So you mentioned that you have like a few different savings goals going on right now. Can you talk about how you are, like what you’re working towards and also how you are, um, maintaining finances within your relationship, not just how it’s structured, but how you are having conversations and communication around that.

20:33 Tram: Yes. So, I think for the saving goals, the biggest, uh, saving goals right now is, uh, the coming trip to the U. S. Next year, hopefully for my exchange. So for this, uh, we estimated that, hey, we would need around 10,000 USD. I mean, because I already received the scholarship for that, um, uh, exchange, but. 10,000 would be an extra thing in case things happen or also help us to visit other states because we will stay there only for six months. So we would want to utilize the time there as much as possible and also to help us to purchase the flight tickets and insurance, that kind of thing. So for that, Every month, so far, we, uh, try to save around 2,000. So whatever we do, it doesn’t matter. Whenever the money come in, we immediately take out 2,000 for the, for the saving account. So I think, uh, that goal will be completed next month or so, and then we will try to move in other long term savings, such as, like, wedding expenses or apartment expenses. And another, uh, smaller, smaller saving goals would be, like, uh, gifts, such as, like, Christmas is coming. And I think for Swedish people and also in my family, we have a tradition of giving each other gifts. So we are so like each month so far, we add in that around 100 or 200 USD so that we will have some, some amount to buy gifts for our loved one. Another one is a vacation. We also add in, um, yeah, I think 100 or 100 ish around every month, hopefully that next year or the year after that we can afford our trip to Japan. So, yeah, so those are the common and biggest saving account so far. And oh yes, and we also have emergency fund, if you also can count that as saving. Uh, yes, so we have around 500 or so. Uh, yes. Going for the emergency fund. Actually, so far, sometimes we would take out some money from the emergency in case we spend so much money in cooking or eating outside. But we are trying to stick to that as much as we can. 

23:00 Emily: I like that you’re, so the way that, the way that I talk about this is, is sinking funds or targeted savings funds. Um, and I like that so much of your saving is for like. Fun, exciting things that you get to do together, because I think that’s a really good introduction to saving for someone who maybe hasn’t practiced it or is less familiar with it. It’s like, it’s really just like planning. Like, do you want to have a December when you’re stressed because you have to buy all the gifts at once and you have no savings for it? Or would you rather build up gradually over time and be more generous because you’ve already planned for it? Like. It’s such a positive, you know, thing.

Plans for a Potential Visiting Fellowship at Harvard

23:36 Emily: Um, I want to hear more about your exchange in the U.S. Um, I’m so excited you’re going to be spending six months and you want to travel and so forth. Like, are you going to a particular university? Is it, you know, for research purposes? Just tell us more about, um, the sort of official, like, career wise reason that you’re doing the trip and then also what you plan to do for fun.

23:53 Tram: Uh, yes. So, uh, hopefully again, it also depends so much on the situation, but I will have a visiting fellow position at Harvard in Boston for six months. I’m still, I already applied and I got a scholarship from Sweden, but I still need to, uh, um, get the offer. Again, they have the possibility to reject still from Harvard. But if everything goes well, I will be there from January to June, like the spring semester. And most of the time, yes, I will be doing research in Boston area. And Markus also is going with me. So that, that will, that, that is a plus. Uh, but beside that, we also plan to visit California where my own sister is staying with her husband. And I also do have other friends there. Markus and me also plan to go to Texas where we can try out the real Texas food. We watch so much YouTube videos about that and maybe Mexico. So, yeah. Those are the plans so far, and I think, as you said, I try and we try to make our saving plans fun and interesting because for me, from the beginning, I’m more just focusing on saving, saving, saving, even though I don’t know what I’m saving for, and Markus is like focusing on living, living, living, just living at the moment, so right now we are trying at least to balance those things, hey, I save, but also I don’t forget to live, and those saving will be spent on the things that I love to do or make my life more meaningful.

25:35 Emily: Yeah, I love that approach. Um, it actually reminds me, I, I reread Die With Zero recently by Bill Perkins. Have you read it? 

25:41 Tram: Oh, not yet. Okay. 

25:43 Emily: Well, this is definitely a recommendation to you, um, because it just reminds me that like all the saving that we do, whether it’s for retirement or whatever, like pretty much all of it is for your own spending in the future. And hopefully to have a great lifestyle that you really enjoy in the future, uh, maybe some of it is leave a legacy, right? For other people, but probably primarily for most people who are not super high earners, it’s like to provide for yourself in the future. Um, but it’s not all about the future. Um, it’s also about living in the present. So it’s really nice that you do have that balance, but it sounds like it’s not really causing a lot of conflict, right? It’s like a, a healthy, um, I’m going to, you know, moderate you and you’re going to moderate me in terms of your like, you know, um, natural preferences. So I really like that. I’m so excited. I hope you get to do that exchange and that you get to do the traveling that you want to. I’m curious, is Markus going to continue working during those six months or is he taking like a leave of absence? 

26:37 Tram: So I think that’s a blessing. thing also because his company allow him to work online during that period of time. I think that is also a thing that I like so much, uh, about his job. I mean, the flexibility to work from home or online sometimes, of course, you cannot check like that for two years or three years, but, uh. If you can explain the reason and if you still can maintain the quality of your job, you have that possibility. So yeah, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s good that we can be there together. 

27:12 Emily: And that’s like a really kind of fire thing, right? Of like having the financial flexibility to work somewhere else if you want to for a while to set up your job so you have that flexibility. Like. Yeah, that’s awesome.

Communication Practices for Maintaining Finances in Your Relationship

27:22 Emily: Okay. I asked you a way too complicated question earlier. The second part of that was, um, what are your like practices around communication and finances, uh, for like maintenance purposes today? 

27:32 Tram: Hmm. Okay. So I think I, I must say that the foundation of everything is that we already kind of agree with each other that we will be very transparent and honest with each other from the first, from, from everything. And from the first few days, we already had that kind of condition. So, um, yes, even though finance topic is kind of really sensitive, but, uh, we bring it up whenever we think that, Hey, for example, if I look at the joint account and I see like. Markus spend 20 or 50. So usually when we spend something, we try to write out, like when we transfer the money, we try to write out the reason why we’re spending that money. But sometimes the Markus would forget. I usually don’t. Uh, so I would say, Hey, I’m looking at the money today, it seemed like you are spending 50 somewhere. Uh, did you have something fun to do or did you eat something nice or something like that? So we would bring it up to each other and ask to know, Hey, where are the money is going? Because for me, I would be very frustrated if I don’t know where the number is going. And at the end of the month, I’m like, Hey, why are we? In short of money, why, what is going on? Like, should we readjust the budgeting things or things like that? And another thing is that every month when the salary comes, we will sit down and we call that like finance days. So we will try to discuss, Hey, this month we have spent this much on this, this, this, it seemed like we eat a lot. Or it seems like we spend a lot on buying clothes or something like that. Should we adjust something? And, uh, so far, I think it goes super well for us and, uh, to have, um, so usually what we do is we have some fun things to do. When we discuss finance, usually we could eat out in a restaurant and when we were waiting for the food to come, we would starting discussing finance or like we say, okay, first we sit here, we discuss finance and after that we can go for sauna or like a beer or something like that. So we try to incorporate some fun activities again to go in so that, like, especially for me, it’s already become a habit. But also I agree that from the beginning, Markus would find it a bit difficult and also, hey, why every time about money, money, money. So to reduce that frustration, we try to incorporate things that we would like to do and also talk about the topics, constantly discuss with each other, being transparent and honest. I think that helps so much. Another thing we also have been practicing is that we try to celebrate our wins, even though sometimes it’s super small. So for example, last week or so, I received a small scholarship. So we also went out to eat, even though every week we already go out and eat, and in the same week Markus could sell his computer, the one he doesn’t need to, need to use anymore. So we also celebrate that. So actually last week we went out and eat three times. Uh, but I think it’s, it’s, it’s good. It give us some motivation that, hey, we, we really enjoy life and, uh, we have the meaning and we like to do things together. 

31:00 Emily: And I, I’m sensing that that is coming from Markus’s side, right? Like if you, like when you weren’t with him, when you were single, if you had a financial win, were you celebrating that or were you just like, great, it goes on my savings? 

31:11 Tram: I do not think so. I just like, Oh, you did great. That’s all I would do. But yeah, yes, like literally celebrate and go out and buy something nice for ourselves. I think I’m also learning so much from Markus. Yeah. 

31:25 Emily: And it just creates that again, like the positive cycle, right? Of like, we did something positive and we get an immediate, like nice reward to it and it encourages you to keep going. And yeah, I think that’s just beautiful. So what I was hearing about for your communications was that you have at the top of the month, you have like a planning period. Um, and then you have maybe just light check ins throughout to make sure you’re sort of, Oh, was this part of the plan? We need to adjust the plan. Um, But I like that balance. So it’s not all like reactive. It’s not all like, Oh no, we overspent. How did this happen? Blame, blame, blame. You know, it’s, it’s more like, okay, we’re, we’re getting on the same page and then we’re just going to sort of check in and make sure that everything’s going fine. And then you have that reset for the next month where you plan again, but it’s also not just planning. It’s not just like, okay, this is what we’re going to do. And we have no idea whether it happened or not. Right. You have to do like both those sides of process. So I like that you’re doing that together. Um, yeah, it reminds me, my husband and I were both pretty involved with our finances when we were both in graduate school, but I would say in the years since then, he’s kind of let me like do what I want. And like, I will ask him questions like, Hmm, okay. You spent 75 at Home Depot. What, what was that? And he’ll be, oh, remember I bought this thing. Okay. Okay. As long as we’re not like spending for spending sake at Home Depot, now that we’re homeowners, that’s the kind of problems we have. Um, okay. Well, this has been such a fun conversation and I’m so glad that you shared these elements of your relationship with us. It sounds so fun as we’ve been talking about. 

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

32:49 Emily: As we wrap up here, would you please share with us your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve already touched on in the interview or it could be something completely new. 

33:00 Tram: So I think I would say that, yes, maybe learn to save, even though the PhD salary is not that high, but I think that, uh, saving give us the freedom and the liberation, literally to choose and also in the future. We don’t know what will happen. But at the same time, I think this I’m also learning like saving, but also do not forget to live, like try to do something fun, even though it’s just a small thing, but also make you feel like, oh, the money I’m earning really bring the meaning. So by that you can keep going in a long time instead of like, drop out in the middle of, of the journey. 

33:42 Emily: yeah. Great point. Very well said. Thank you so much for coming on Tram, and it was lovely to to meet you and thanks for volunteering. 

33:49 Tram: Thank you so much for having me.

Outtro

33:57 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

How This Grad Student-Parent Managed Her Money and Time in the Bay Area

October 23, 2023 by Jill Hoffman Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Ilana Horwitz, an assistant professor of Jewish Studies and Sociology at Tulane University. Ilana started her PhD at Stanford when her first child was nine months old, and she had a second child after her third year. Emily and Ilana discuss the frugal tactics and time management strategies that she employed while her children were young. They also discuss the income disparity and gender dynamics that came into play between Ilana and her husband during that period and when Ilana was on the academic job market. Finally, Ilana makes the case for having children as a grad student instead of as a faculty member. If you are a parent in academia, whether as a grad student or full-time employee, don’t miss this episode!

Links mentioned in the Episode

  • PF for PhDs Podcast Guest Submission Season 17+
  • Host a PF for PhDs Seminar at Your Institution
  • Emily’s E-mail Address
  • Fair Play by Eve Rodsky
  • PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List 
  • PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
  • Dr. Ilana Horwitz’s Website
How This Grad Student-Parent Managed Her Money and Time in the Bay Area

Teaser

Ilana H (00:00): I think really creatively and outside the box about how you can garner resources in your community, in your social network to help you sort of accomplish things. And it’s not necessarily like a specific amount of money, but that, you know, if you have a talent, like maybe you can tutor somebody in statistics and in exchange they can watch your kids for a couple of hours.

Introduction

Emily (00:32): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others.

Emily (01:03): This is Season 16, Episode 4, and today my guest is Dr. Ilana Horwitz, an assistant professor of Jewish Studies and Sociology at Tulane University. Ilana started her PhD at Stanford when her first child was nine months old, and she had a second child after her third year. Ilana and I discuss the frugal tactics and time management strategies that she employed while her children were young. We also discuss the income disparity and gender dynamics that came into play between Ilana and her husband during that period and when Ilana was on the academic job market. Finally, Ilana makes the case for having children as a grad student instead of as a faculty member. If you are a parent in academia, whether as a grad student or full-time employee, don’t miss this episode!

Emily (01:50): This is your official invitation to please volunteer as a guest for one of the upcoming episodes! I love that on this podcast I get to feature PhDs and PhDs-to-be who are almost exclusively regular people and learn and share their real-life stories and strategies. Please go to PFforPhDs.com/podcastvolunteer/ and fill out the quick form, and I’ll be in touch over email. I look forward to interviewing you in the coming months! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s16e4/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Ilana Horwitz.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Ilana H (02:57): Sure. Thank you so much for having me on on this podcast, Emily. I am an assistant professor of Jewish Studies and Sociology at Tulane University. I went to graduate school at Stanford in the Graduate School of Education and I got my PhD in Sociology of Education and Jewish Studies. But I had a long career before I started graduate school. I worked in management consulting and in several sort of researchy and evaluation kind of roles and a couple of startups. And so I didn’t start my PhD until I was 30. And then after I did my PhD, I stayed at Stanford for a two year postdoc and then joined the Tulane faculty. And I’m now in my third year at Tulane.

Ilana’s Book: The Entrepreneurial Scholar

Emily (03:44): Excellent. And please tell us the subject of this book, ’cause I can already see there’s overlap with your professional history there and the subject and everything.

Ilana H (03:51): Yeah, absolutely. The title of the book is called The Entrepreneurial Scholar and it’s really a book about how early career scholars and PhD students can think about generating influential ideas while working with very limited resources and navigating an environment of high uncertainty. This is something that people who are entrepreneurial are really good at, but people who are really good at school tend to not be as good at. So it’s really a book that tries to get people to think differently about the dispositions and sort of habits that they bring to graduate school.

Emily (04:26): I love it. Absolutely. There’s no way I’m gonna miss this when it comes out. So we are recording this interview in September, 2023. The book is expected to be out in summer 2024, and I will have Ilana back on the pro on the podcast during that post book period promotional period. ’cause I’m so curious about this whole process, not just the subject of the book, but the making of the book. So is really exciting, but this is not our subject for today. Our subject for today is the fact that you had a child before you even started graduate school, and then you had another one during graduate school. And so we’re gonna talk about kind of the financial stuff that you did to, you know, make that work while you were a graduate student. And so let’s start off by talking about kind of what was your family structure and and what were the finances like at that time and all those details.

Family Structure and Finances During Graduate School

Ilana H (05:09): Yeah, so I had my first kid in January of 2013. And at the time I was working and I had applied to graduate school. And ironically today actually my kids are off from school. So if you’re watching the video here, they are in the background. here, they are much older. But I had Aria I was working and then when I had her, I, a few weeks after she was born, actually my advisor called me and said he had accepted me into the program and so I decided not to go back to work. And I was able to stay home with my first one for eight months. And then I started graduate school when she was nine months old. We had our second baby between my third and fourth year we actually tried to plan it to h her between my second and third year because of sort of but it takes so long to get pregnant sometimes that I realized that planning. It was a very silly attempt. At the time, in terms of our finances, we were pretty financially stable. My husband and I had both worked at that point for about a decade. And so we had a lot of money saved up and he had a pretty stable job in the Bay Area. I had about $40,000 of loans from undergrad and from my first master’s at Teachers Columbia. But they were in deferment and we, I had a pretty generous stipend from Stanford. It was only, it was $25,000, but I had an additional sort of $20,000 for four for a couple of years from an outside source. So I was making about 45,000. But we had very high expenses. So living, we lived on Stanford’s campus in the family housing, which I’ll talk a lot about. But we, our rent started at about $2,000 at the start of graduate school. And then it was up to 2,700 by the time I finished graduate school a month. And then we had really high childcare expenses. We did put our children in daycare full-time. And basically by the time sort of my last few years of grad school, we were paying $50,000 a year in childcare expenses. ’cause Each kid cost over $2,000 per year. So that pretty much all wiped out my entire salary. But we did have my husband’s income to get us through it.

Emily (07:39): Wow, okay. Thank you so much for all those details. So it sounds like your stipend from Stanford at least initially was around 45 k. Did you get any supplement for like a childcare grant or anything? I’ve, I’ve noticed that some other students have had access to those kinds of resources.

Ilana H (07:55): I did not. While I was at Stanford, there was a big push to help parents because parents were really struggling. One of my classmates, actually, Tina Cheuk, somebody you could talk to someday started a whole campaign around mothers and parents in academia. And as a result of this like amazing advocacy work that she did, I think parents were able to apply for grants of up to $10,000, partly to cover not just childcare, but also healthcare. My understanding is that the healthcare expenses through Stanford were in extraordinarily expensive and people weren’t able to pay for it. I was on my husband’s insurance, and so we were able to do it that way. But the sort of advocacy work that she did made a big difference to some parents. And I think by the time I left, there were more resources available to parents.

Emily (08:44): Thank you so much for telling us about that effort because it just goes to show that these advocacy efforts are effective in, in various places. I love to hear that. Tell me a little bit about, more about like, okay, you said we’re basically trying to basically getting by on your husband’s salary because yours is effectively going to childcare. I just wanna know because you said it’s high cost of living, but presumably your husband also has a good Bay Area type salary. I’m trying to understand how much of a strain this was being in graduate school. So like, were you guys still able to invest? Were you guys still able to save or was it like, Hmm, nope. Like there’s no, the building towards the future is the career thing here. It’s not the financial thing at this time.

Ilana H (09:22): We were able to, I think, continue saving, but part of I think my own challenge was that I I had grown up sort of like a, as a working class immigrant, my family moved from the former Soviet Union when I was seven. And then my my, my parents had sort of like pretty working class jobs and then my father unexpectedly passed away when I was 14. And so I think having grown up sort of in some economic precarity and also seeing my mom really having to figure out her finances on her own has always made me very like nervous about being reliant on somebody else’s income, which is, you know, nothing that my, is my husband’s fault, but it’s my own sort of struggle. And so even though we were fine financially, I was constantly trying to think about ways to sort of be frugal, ways to be creative about resources which I know we’re gonna talk about. But I, I felt like I had to sort of because I wasn’t working and I’d been so used to working, I felt like I had to find all sorts of ways to save money and be really, really efficient with our resources.

Creative Financial Strategies During Graduate School

Emily (10:25): So what kinds of things were you doing? Like what could be helpful maybe for other people in a similar situation to hear in terms of how you could keep a lid on expenses related to your children?

Ilana H (10:36): I tried to think really creatively about using and harnessing the communal resources of the Stanford community. So I mentioned that we lived in graduate student housing and our apartments were tiny. But what was amazing is that we had these communal playgrounds and I started spending time hanging out with other parents, you know, on the swing set and whatever. And I realized that like everyone had a lot of really interesting skills and I was like, how can we all sort of bring together all of our unique skills to help each other? And so one thing I knew I was good at was taking family photographs. I had like a background in photography, I really loved it. And so I posted, there was like a parent listerv, and so I posted an email saying like, I would like to barter my photography services in exchange for somebody coming to help me build my furniture. I don’t have time to build my baby crib and the dresser and all these things. And so if you come and build my furniture, I will take family photos. And so that was one thing I started doing. I also sent out an email saying, who wants to do like a meal swap? Because during my winter breaks, spring breaks and summer breaks, I would go on a intensive sort of cooking frenzy where I would cook a ton of stews and soups and chilies and then freeze them in mason jars. And I was like, but I would get sick of the same soup. So I was like, if other people did this, we could have a big soup swap. So I thought about doing that. I also realized, you know, your kids wear some of their clothes like five times and they’re brand new. And so I started organizing baby clothing swaps and also not just for clothing, but like strollers and cribs and all these other things. And I, I think the key thing was like not being shy to ask and sort of put the ideas out there because I think some people feel like, oh you know, I have to, we live in this very individualistic society and I had to get out of this mindset and think about what is the, what can the community do together that’s bigger than what all of us can do individually. I also started all of our houses were attached and I realized that our baby monitors would reach across homes. And so like we had good friends who lived like one door down, like there was somebody separating us. But our monitor reached over there and I said like, we wanna go out to dinner. We don’t wanna pay for our babysitter once we put our baby to bed. Can we give you the monitor and like you just check on our baby? And we did that and we, and then we would exchange those sort of services for each other. So those were some of the ways that I creatively thought about using and leveraging all the parents in the community to help each other.

Emily (13:15): Well, I love those ideas, not just for the specifics of baby clothes or bartering services, but because you were leading by example and you’re still leading by example by sharing this with us on the podcast. So did you find that people were very receptive to these ideas? I would be if I heard them, then again, I’m a pretty frugal person. So how, how were they received?

Ilana H (13:34): Yeah, I think they were received great. I think people were really in the same boat. And I think everybody was trying to make ends meet. There was a lot of stay-at-home parents and graduate housing. It was very typical for men to be getting their graduate degrees and for moms to be full-time with childcare responsibilities. Because basically if you have more than like two kids, it doesn’t sort of make sense to pay for care. It’s often, you know, cheaper for the mom to stay home. And so people who had three or four children did that arrangement and they were still really struggling. So people, yeah, definitely embraced the idea of communal sharing. They loved it. And we also lived in the Bay area where there was like a mentality of recycle, reuse, repurpose. So I think that helped us also,

Emily (14:30): Yeah, my mind is boggling a little bit, thinking about a family being supported by a grad student or postdoc kind of salary or stipend in the Bay area. But I know this often comes up for, for instance, international students and postdocs, right, whose spouse doesn’t have a working type visa, so they literally have no choice. But to be, you know, the stay at home parent or a stay at home home spouse wow, okay. That’s such an awesome idea and I think it really helped in your case that you all did live. I mean, it sounds like you put things out to the parent listserv, but also many of you were actually neighbors. And so that like proximity and the familiarity that that breeds, I would imagine helped a lot with that initiative.

Ilana H (15:08): Yeah, because I think what that did was develop a sense of trust. Like it wasn’t random people who who you didn’t know who you were trying to collaborate with, right? We had this like, I’m a sociologist, so I’ll just say like we had developed this sort of these networks of trust of social capital. And so I knew that like giving my monitor to you and other parent, I knew who they were, I knew who their children were, their children had probably played at my house. There was a sort of sense of trust and reciprocity that developed by the virtue of the fact that we were all in the same boat and living in close proximity to each other. I also took advantage of a bunch of some Stanford resources that I think some parents don’t, didn’t even know exist. And I wanna put this out there, like for students to see if this exists on your campus. So Stanford dining halls had amazing food and children ate for free, completely for free. And so not only did I not have to cook and clean for my kids, you know, but also it was free. And so we went to the dining hall on a very, very regular basis. It was also like nice to see other families there. It got my children to try new foods, but that was an incredible resource. I also did some things like I co-oped at my kids’ school. If you co-op meaning like you volunteer in the classroom for two hours a week, you can get a discounted tuition rate. So I did that. I also served on the board, which got me 10% off of the tuition. And then I also thought creatively about outsourcing and when I wanted to outsource things. So I come from a business background. Sometimes I like to think like an economist. And so there was a period of time in my sort of fifth year I was taking really some really hard classes trying to finish my work on my dissertation. And it was just too much and I just like wasn’t able to do all the cooking. And so I had talked to one of the parents I’m sorry, not the parents, one of the teachers in my kid’s school and she mentioned like she lived on her own. She was kind of lonely and she loved to cook. And I was like, would you like to come and like spend a couple hours at my house cooking on a Saturday or Sunday and I will pay you? And so I paid her $25 an hour and she came and she did a couple hours of cooking that basically would hold us over for the rest of the week. And the way I thought about that expense was like I was also doing some side hustling and had some consulting jobs on the side and I was like, for me to do an hour of work, you know, I would generally get paid, you know, between like 50 to a hundred dollars depending on the job. Sometimes it was a lot less. But generally I was like, for an hour of my work I could basically get, you know, several hours of time from for somebody to cook. And so I thought about outsourcing in a pretty strategic way because I had this other income coming in from side hustling.

Emily (17:58): Yeah, I love that point and thank you so much for bringing it up. A lot of people within the personal finance community talk about your hourly rate, like your hourly compensation rate and say, ah, anything you know, below that you should outsource it if you can get it done for less. I don’t quite agree with that, but in your situation there’s an exact corollary, which you just said this was not your base salary that you were comparing to. This was the extra hours you could put towards the side hustle that you were comparing to. So it directly freed up your time for that particular income source. So that’s why the comparison works really well. And I love this idea of you like, you know, in your first four years of graduate school doing all this batch cooking during your breaks and like getting prepared and getting your family used to the system of we eat freezer meals and we do this bulk cooking stuff. And then after that realizing, oh wow, I don’t, I now don’t even have time for the cooking part of it, but we’re already used to kind of the system and so you can just outsource that last leg of it and make it work for you. So yeah, thank you so much for like talking about your thought process through that. Was there anything else that you considered outsourcing other than cooking or, or did outsource? I mean,

Ilana H (19:03): Occasionally I would outsource some childcare help. So my kids were in school full time, which was like eight to six. And occasionally I would have people some of their teachers would come on the weekend and I would pay them hourly to watch my kids if I ne needed to do something over the weekend and couldn’t real, you know, ask my husband to sort of watch the kids yet again. I don’t think there was anything else that I can think of.

Time Management During Graduate School

Emily (19:29): Okay. Well now that we’re into kind of the time management portion of the conversation, can you share with us any other like time management related strategies used to make this period of your life work?

Ilana H (19:40): Yeah, so I in the beginning of graduate school, probably my first and second year I would put my, my daughter, I just had one at the time and she would go to bed pretty early, right? That’s the great thing about babies. They go to bed by like seven 30 and I would do a lot of work at night, but then I realized I couldn’t sleep particularly when I was working on my qualifying paper, which is what we have instead of comps. Because I was just thinking about the data in my head all the time and like trying to resolve puzzles as I was trying to sleep and it just wasn’t working. And so I decided to totally shift my schedule to go to bed by about 9 30, 10 at the latest and then wake up five to five 30. And my kids, especially in sort of the later years, were not waking up until like seven. And so I would get a solid hour and a half of work time in the morning and I felt so productive and so fabulous. It took, you know, other people I’ve given this advice to have started it. And then they give up really quickly. The, the trick is you have to stick with it for a couple weeks. Like the first couple days are so hard ’cause your body is not used to doing that. So stick with it and for, you know, it, it can work.

Emily (20:48): So this strategy is called the split shift. It’s something that I learned about in Laura Vander cam’s, I know how she does it, which is about working moms with high impact jobs. And yeah, it’s super, super common as you said, because your kids are only awake for those limited windows. If you’re working for a lot of that window, then you don’t get to see them that much. So you sort of shift the work around, like you said, you tried it in the evening, that’s what most people do, but it didn’t work for you for the reasons you said. And so I love that you just didn’t give up on the strategy entirely. You just shifted the window. Now it is very challenging to get up before young children, at least most young children, but it sounds like it was working for you all. And I know actually from the podcast that Laura Vander cam co-hosts, which is called Best of both worlds, that her co-host is also a very, very early riser. So she loves that morning split shift as well. So yeah, and I totally agree with you. I changed my own sleep habits sort of early on the pandemic. I had never been one to consistently be waking up at the same time every day. And I was a bit of a night owl, but I started getting up at 6:00 AM every day. And you’re exactly right, it’s the, you have to stick with the schedule, you have to power through the initial like difficult early part, and then it becomes more easy as your body then regulates itself towards that schedule that you’ve set instead of like me just being haphazard all over the place when you go to sleep and when you wake up.

Ilana H (22:03): Yeah, that’s absolutely right. Being consistent with a sleep schedule is really important. So I wake up really early on the weekends also. Another thing that I did or things people often said to me in graduate school, like, I don’t understand how you do it. Like, how can you be a mom and a grad student? And actually I think I was more productive than most people because I knew that I had this very finite period of time, right? Like, I have eight to six and that’s it. And so I didn’t, I wasn’t on social media. I like dilly, didn’t dilly dally. Like I didn’t waste any time, every moment that I had, I was incredibly productive because I knew my time was limited as opposed to, I think people who are like, I have all day, like, so what if I watch a couple hours of TV now as a result? I was like, had no idea what was going on in the world. I had no, I have no pop culture knowledge at all whatsoever. I pretty much lived under a rock, but I was really efficient. And so there’s something to be said about knowing that you have a finite period of time and being really efficient during those hours.

Emily (23:01): I think I have to imagine not only the the parenthood aspect of this, but your past work experience played into this as well because I think it’s really difficult for people sort of like me, I almost did this who go pretty much directly from undergrad to grad school and carry that like student mindset, the student schedule, the student finances, the student identity and so forth into their graduate careers if they haven’t had the kind of interruption like you did by a working career. So probably a lot of the habits and strategies you learned in your twenties were you, you were then able to apply once you got to graduate school.

Ilana H (23:30): Yeah, I, by the time I got to graduate school, I knew myself really, really well and I knew what worked for me and what didn’t. I think early in my career I was always like waiting till the last minute to do things and was a total procrastinator and submitted things late. And really I, and one of the things I, the biggest lesson I learned in my mid twenties when I tried working for a couple of organizations is that I didn’t do well having a boss. I really needed to have autonomy and agency in my work. And being a PhD student and now a faculty member is exactly what is, that’s exactly what I have and that’s what I love so much about my job because I learned that I really needed to set my own schedule. I wanna be able to work what I want on what I want and how I want. And I didn’t do well telling me to, having people tell me sort of how to do my job and when to do it. But so my biggest, you know, general advice for people when they come to me about career advice is to take time off between being an undergrad and a grad student because you learn so much about yourself as well as about the real world. As opposed to when you go straight through. There’s so many ideal things that we think about theoretical things we learn about in the classroom that just don’t translate or are much more difficult in reality. And when you actually go to work in the real world, you see some of those some of those things play out.

Emily (24:52): I love it. I give the same advice whenever anyone seems receptive to it.

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Emily (24:59): Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2023-2024 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/speaking/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Family Roles and Responsibilities During Graduate School

Emily (26:17): Now, we already got a hint of this earlier in the email when you were talking about not wanting to rely on someone else financially. So I wanna ask about in your household during this period, how were the roles working between you and your husband? Did you have defined areas of responsibility? Was that something you were constantly negotiating? I’m sure it changed with time, but can you tell us about that process?

Ilana H (26:39): Yeah, absolutely. When I started graduate school at the time my husband had a very long commute to his job. This is in the day when people actually commuted to work. And so I was in charge both of childcare pick up and drop off. But also because I was, you know, in grad school and I had the more flexible schedule it was assumed and we never had like an outright conversation about it, but it was assumed that I was gonna be the one to take the time off. And so when my kid first started daycare, she was sick all the time. She had ear infections, she had flus, she had colds, all the stuff. And I also, at the time, Stanford operates on a quarter schedule, which I had never been on a quarter schedule. And it’s very different than a semester schedule because things move very fast. And so you can never say to yourself on a quarter schedule like, oh, I’ll get to that later. Or like, I missed that concept, I’ll get to it later because there is no later, it’s only 10 weeks. And so I just remember my first quarter it was really hard. I took this very difficult economics class or it was difficult for me ’cause I was trying to learn things that the other undergrad students in the class it was very intuitive to them, like integrals and derivatives. And my kid was constantly sick. And so even missing like two or three or four classes, which is what ended up happening set me back a lot. And so I really struggled with how to like navigate both, like the idea that the grad student is the more flexible one means that we are always having to, to take that on. And also as the mother, there’s so much of the like kind of invisible childcare responsibility. So for example I was the one that managed all the clothes. Like I knew when they would outgrow the clothes and where the next size was. And sort of keeping all of that organized. I did all the co-oping at the, at the school. I was the one that had to do all the paperwork for the school and do take with them to all the doctor’s appointments and hired, you know, anyone that we, you know, brought in outside of childcare hours. So sort of navigating all that kind of what was I think called the invisible responsibility of childcare fell on me. And that was really hard. Another thing that was especially hard is when I was on the job market when I went on the, I went on the job market three times and I was very unsuccessful up until I finally got this job at Tulane. But at one point I had been offered a job at or at least a postdoc at Brandeis. And at the time my husband, this was pre Covid and my husband said like, you want us to move to Boston for two years for you to make $50,000? Like that doesn’t make any sense. You know, it’s not a permanent job and it would mean that I would have to give up my job, which, you know, in terms of our household hold finances would make no sense. But for me it was hard to sort of navi like feel like, oh, when am I ever gonna get my turn? If it’s always about money I’m never gonna get to have a turn. And so when I finally got a job offer at Tulane, I said to my husband and he didn’t wanna move to New Orleans, I said, you know, if, if you, if we don’t move for this job, like I’m gonna be very resentful. Um and then Covid hit and he was able to take his job remotely with him, but he had even agreed to move to New Orleans before that happened. So and now actually he works from home. And when my kids are sick, he’s the one that now stays home with them and I go and teach and we have a much more even sort of distribution of childcare and it’s, it’s great. But because the grad school time is when you, you know, you’re more flexible, I think that compounded by the gender dynamics of childcare responsibility made it hard for me.

Emily (30:24): Absolutely. You were, it was a double whammy on you. Right? And you mentioned earlier about some of your peers and housing having like a stay-at-home spouse. Now I imagine, were there any women who were graduate students among that who had the stay-at-home husband? Or did you only see the opposite model?

Ilana H (30:40): I think I only saw the opposite model.

Emily (30:45): And isn’t that telling right?

Ilana H (30:47): It is telling.

Gender and Income Dynamics with a Working Partner

Emily (30:48): Yes. absolutely. So you had this, these two seemingly really good reasons right, why you should be the one to be handling the childcare and as you said later on, the roles changed and, and things shifted. But is there any like advice that you would give to your past self or someone else who’s in a similar gendered plus income differential, like kind of situation that would’ve helped you I don’t know, get to graduation faster, feel more balanced, whatever would’ve been a greater degree of success for you at that time?

Ilana H (31:18): This one is kind of maybe sort of silly, but you know, when I was on the job market maybe the second time and I was applying pretty widely, my husband and I would have these like extensive conversations before I applied anywhere. Like could we imagine living there and we would, you know, get into this whole thing. Like I’d apply to a job at Notre Dame and he’d be like, do you really wanna live in South Bend, Indiana? No offense to anybody listening from South Bend, Indiana, but he’s like . That wasn’t his first choice of places to move. But we would have these extensive conversations and in retrospect like that was a waste of time and, and a waste of emotional energy because none of those jobs panned out. So I don’t know why we bothered like sort of investing so much of our conversation time and emotional energy even having those conversations. Um and when I did apply to the job at Tulane, he was like, I, I had sort of given up by then about asking him where I should apply or not apply. That was my third time on the market and I was like, I’m just gonna apply wherever ’cause none of it’s gonna work out anyways. And when I applied he, he just kind of remarked like, oh by the way, like I have no interest in living in New Orleans. And I was like, oh well I won’t get the job anyways. And I did and it worked out. But I just, I wish I hadn’t spent so much emotional energy sort of thinking about whether we could actually move somewhere.

Emily (32:34): I would imagine compounded with this situation is the fact that you were living in the Bay Area and I’m imagining the type of job that your husband has, it’s very difficult to leave that area of the country and the job opportunities that it affords unless you’re really looking to get out, you know, and then you can, you know, leverage your experience and your high salary and all that when you go somewhere else. But if you’re not already desiring that, I can see that that area has a pull. I’m never gonna make as much money elsewhere, by the way. You don’t need as much, but I’m never gonna make as much money elsewhere as I do here. So I I imagine that plays into it as well.

Ilana H (33:04): It does. And also my husband has a job that he is really passionate about. He works in clean energy and I you know, he’s super, he was super supportive of me going to graduate school. I’m very supportive of his career. But it made it hard to look outside of the Bay area ’cause there’s not a lot of clean tech jobs elsewhere. And there was a point at which I was you know, interviewing for a job at a highly teaching focused university. I did not really want to be in a, in a teaching intensive university, but it was in the Bay Area. I didn’t end up getting the job, but that would’ve been probably a sacrifice I would’ve had to make for us to stay in the Bay Area so that we could at least kind of have you know have both of us be happy. But then, you know, because of the pandemic, his job did become remote and it enabled us to move to New Orleans and for him to be able to stay working for his Bay Area company,

Emily (33:54): That is one of the, so to speak, positive things that’s come out of our pandemic experiences. Like you mentioned the remote work possibility. I mean, child sick days are not easy, but it’s certainly much less of a strain if you didn’t have to leave the house in the first place for your job. And you don’t have to scramble for the backup childcare or sacrifice your whole day of going to classes like you had to do to stay home with the sick kids. So in, in that respect and the working remotely, you can work for a company here and live over here, which is something that my husband does. That’s all been very interesting and, and in some ways positive, but we’re still kind of working it out, right, as a society . Yeah. Is there anything else that you would like to say about that dynamic between you and your husband or anything that you would, you know, offer to other people by the way of advice or things to think about?

Ilana H (34:38): Yeah, I would say that no one really talks about the gender dynamics and sort of being the doctoral student and being a mother and all of that. Like, I just think I wasn’t psychologically prepared. It wasn’t a conversation that people were having, you know, people were talking about like where we don’t have lactation rooms and you know, sort of more the logistical challenges. But I was, I think navigating the sort of role dynamic challenge and didn’t have a lot of people I think who were part of that conversation. And I just wanna normalize that experience more for people.

Emily (35:19): Have you read Fair Play by Eve Rodsky?

Ilana H (35:23): I have not.

Emily (35:24): This is a suggestion for you slash anyone who has I would say a lot of work to be done in your household and maybe, maybe there’s children involved, maybe there’s not, but is feeling like my partner, I’m doing so much more, they’re not pulling their weight. And something that the book helped me realize was just the degree of work that is going on in my house and actually, wow, my husband is doing a lot and we both feel like we’re doing more than the other person just ’cause there’s so much to do and we don’t always see the labor that the other person is putting in. And so what that book does, and there’s like a sort of a game associated with like a card, like a, the cards have like responsibilities and you say, okay, this is your card, this is gonna be your responsibility, but I’m gonna take this card, it’s gonna be my responsibility. And so it’s a way of really putting that work of the household out in the open and making it much more explicit and splitting it in a way that makes sense for people’s time availability and interest and talents and all that sort of thing. So it’s, it’s a way of negotiating and maybe maybe taking the the edge out of that conversation by using this this game or this like set of tactics. So something to put out there as well. Now you mentioned earlier, for instance, your husband had a long commute and that is a day killer. Absolutely. So like really the availability, his availability was a legitimate barrier in that situation, you know, so we have to acknowledge that as well.

Ilana H (36:42): Yeah, absolutely. And he wanted to be, you know, really helpful. So part of it was like my own issue that I didn’t sort of maybe advocate for myself, but part of it was that, you know, yeah, he wasn’t, he wasn’t there and he was so, so, so incredibly encouraging and supportive of me going to grad school. I didn’t even wanna go at first. I didn’t think I’d be able to sort of do do it well. So I definitely don’t wanna paint a picture of him not being a supportive husband. He, he absolutely was. And now everything in our house is like, feels fantastic. But you know, it also took a little bit of couples counseling to figure out that dynamic, which is something I encourage people to consider.

Emily (37:21): And your kids are a little older than mine, but I’ve noticed it has gotten a bit easier as they’ve gotten out of the baby and toddler stage the workload.

Ilana H (37:28): Absolutely.

Emily (37:29): You know, once they can do some things for themselves, wow, okay, that’s your responsibility now getting dressed or whatever it is. So the workload comes down a little bit in that respect, although as I understand the emotional workload increases as the children get older. And I just wanna say like, I’m so glad that you were willing to have this, this aspect of the conversation with me. It is a very difficult thing to talk about. And it is a financial issue really because these kinds of thoughts and the gender dynamics and everything that we’re talking about plays into women’s careers and how much financial success they’re able to have, how much they’re able to bring to their household. You know, if you’re constantly the one who’s on for childcare, then are you really going to be viewed well by your boss and be up for that next promotion and so forth. So like these are real sacrifices that can have effect on the household finances as well as the individual finances. So it’s important to talk about it.

Ilana H (38:15): Yeah, absolutely.

The Benefits of Having Children During Graduate School

Emily (38:17): Okay, awesome. So one thing that you told me in our prep for this interview is that you were really glad that you had your children prior to and during graduate school instead of waiting until you had your faculty position. So I want you to make the case for why people who are emotionally and otherwise ready for children should just go ahead and do it while they’re in graduate school.

Ilana H (38:34): I think think there’s never gonna be a time where you have as much autonomy and agency as you do during graduate school. Like people in graduate school think they’re so busy. faculty life is, is much harder. Because now I not only have to teach at set hours, I also have to hold, you know, office hours. I have to go to faculty meetings. I have like real responsibilities that would make it so much harder if I had to worry about you know, my kid being sick or just like generally being tired. Because when you’re a grad student, like if you’re tired and you need to take a day off or a couple hours off, no one cares. But now people are gonna notice, or at least I would feel really self-conscious about it. And also you know, the, the sort of feeling of the tenure o clock is real now and it wasn’t real. Like if I needed to stay in grad school an extra year I could. And the, the sort of pressures that I feel now are much more significant. And so I think doing it during the freedom of graduate school if you can manage it financially is the way to go. Well,

Emily (39:47): I wanna probe on that point just one second further, if you can manage it financially. Now you had your husband’s income, so that’s great. And you have your, a generous stipend from Stanford. Do you think it would’ve been easier to do this as a faculty member with your faculty salary versus the grad student salary? What kind of difference would that have made?

Ilana H (40:05): No I mean I, my faculty salary is, faculty salary is, you know, it’s a little higher, but I live in New Orleans and salaries here aren’t that high. And so I don’t actually think it would’ve made a big difference. I, I mean also realistically, I couldn’t have waited. I was already 30 when I started graduate school. And I didn’t start my faculty job until I was in my very late thirties, so I needed to have kids then. But I think the, I think I would’ve preferred to just take out loans and still do it during graduate school as opposed to doing it as a faculty member.

Emily (40:46): Yeah, it’s interesting because you have to think about, especially like you said, when you’re starting graduate school at an older age, if your vision for your life is I wanna be a faculty member and I wanna have children and all this has to come together somehow, then really what you’re doing when you take out student loans is you’re betting on yourself and you’re, you’re borrowing from your future self to pay for your current life. And if you’re confident in the track that you’re on and that you’re gonna make enough income to be able to justify those loans and pay them back, then I do think that makes sense. And plenty of people do take out childcare to take out student loans, pay for childcare, for example. It’s a very reasonable thing to do when what you’re doing is investing in your career and your future earning potential.

Ilana H (41:21): Yeah, and I wanna just be clear that it doesn’t mean that you think you’re gonna make it into a faculty position. It means you’re betting on yourself having a job. And I knew that with a PhD I would get a job and that it would be a decent paying job. I did not expect to necessarily become a faculty member. As we’ll talk about a year from now the odds of getting a faculty position are incredibly low, like in the single digits. And so you have to be confident that you will get a job which you know, requires a, a whole sort of different kind of mindset but not necessarily a faculty job. And maybe you could get a job that pays much more than a faculty job because this job doesn’t pay all that much.

Emily (42:04): Yeah, absolutely. And I do think as you get higher up in the, you know, people with this degree level, you know, high school, college, graduate school, the people who have the highest degrees like doctorates have the lowest unemployment rates. So it’s pretty likely you’re gonna have some kind of job, probably a pretty decent paying job, even if it’s not the faculty member one, like you said, the consolation might be you make more outside of academia.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (42:23): So Ilana, this has been such a wonderful conversation. I’ve really enjoyed talking with you and I’m looking forward to having you back once your book comes out. I wanna leave us with the last question I ask of all my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview or it could be something completely new.

Ilana H (42:40): So because this is a podcast specifically talking about childcare and directed at parents, my advice is gonna be particularly about that topic and that is to think really creatively and outside the box about how you can garner resources in your community, in your social network to help you sort of accomplish things. And it’s not necessarily like a specific amount of money, but that, you know, if you have a talent, like maybe you can tutor somebody in statistics and in exchange they can watch your kids for a couple of hours, but think creatively about the sort of non-financial resources in your community and how those can be exchanged to create, to create help for everybody.

Emily (43:24): And something I’ve noticed when I’ve started doing this actually in recent years with my neighbors, my immediate neighbors also have young families like I do, is that the exchange of resources also creates and reinforces the community. So like, it feels good to help someone else and it feels good to be helped by someone else so you can actually get, you know, stronger relationships out of this exchange as well.

Ilana H (43:43): Yeah, I think that’s absolutely right and I think it contributed to our feeling like we have a really strong community during graduate school and that people are really counting on each other. We again like live in this very individualistic society where we don’t want to ask other people for help. We wanna think that we can do it on our own and we just need to get out of that mindset.

Emily (44:03): Absolutely. Ilana, thank you again so much for volunteering to be on the podcast and I can’t wait to talk with you again in less than a year.

Ilana H (44:09): Thanks Emily.

Outtro

Emily (44:16): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

How This Grad Student Budgeted for Having Her First Child

September 11, 2023 by Jill Hoffman 4 Comments

In this episode, Emily interviews Madeline Hebert, a rising second-year PhD student in Human Development and Family Sciences at the University of Connecticut. Madeline’s household has an irregular income; her assistantship stipend varies between the academic year and the summer and her husband is paid hourly throughout the year with a variable schedule. Madeline details her household budget, which accounts for their irregular income, irregular expenses, and financial goals. Their biggest financial goal at the moment is to provide for their new baby, due just a few weeks after this interview was recorded. Emily and Madeline discuss the Big Five expenses that new parents need to account for: health insurance, parental leave, childcare, baby stuff, and home/car. Madeline shares all she’s learned about the benefits she receives at the federal, state, and university levels (she is part of a union), and how important it is to talk with your peers about their financial experiences.

Links mentioned in the Episode

  • PF for PhDs Office Hours
  • PF for PhDs Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients Workshop
  • PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List
  • PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
  • Madeline Hebert Twitter
How This Grad Student Budgeted for Having Her First Child

Teaser

00:00 Madeline H: Really look and consider that quality of life package portion of the Ph.D. like research interest that is super important. But having a livable arrangement is also extremely important for peace of mind, for, I knew that for us, pregnancy was a very real option for us during my Ph.D. So, I want to see like, what would that look like? What what coverage do they have and what kind of protections do they have? So.

Introduction

00:31 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others.

01:01 Emily: This is Season 16, Episode 1, and today my guest is Madeline Hebert, a rising second-year PhD student in Human Development and Family Sciences at the University of Connecticut. Madeline’s household has an irregular income; her assistantship stipend varies between the academic year and the summer and her husband is paid hourly throughout the year with a variable schedule. Madeline details her household budget, which accounts for their irregular income, irregular expenses, and financial goals. Their biggest financial goal at the moment is to provide for their new baby, due just a few weeks after this interview was recorded. Madeline and I discuss the Big Five expenses that new parents need to account for: health insurance, parental leave, childcare, baby stuff, and home/car. Madeline shares all she’s learned about the benefits she receives at the federal, state, and university levels—she is part of a union—and how important it is to talk with your peers about their financial experiences.

02:08 Emily: My Office Hours are open to you this fall! About once per month I host a free Zoom call to which you can bring any financial question or topic that relates to your journey as a PhD or PhD-to-be to discuss with me and the other attendees. These sessions are limited to four people each. Register through PFforPhDs.com/officehours/. I look forward to speaking with you there! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s16e1/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Madeline Hebert.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:55 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today. Madeleine Hebert. She is a rising second year PhD student at the University of Connecticut. Now, we are recording this interview in late July 2023. By the time you hear this, Madeleine will ideally have a new family member joining her, which she will talk about later on in the interview. So first, we’re going to discuss irregular incomes and supplementing your income as a graduate student. How Madeline and her husband budget for irregular expenses and irregular income. And finally, about how they’re budgeting for their baby, who will be born by the time you hear this. Okay. So, Madeline, thank you so much for joining me today. Will you please introduce yourself to the audience a little bit further?

03:37 Madeline H: Thank you for having me. Yes. So my name is Madeline. I am a rising second year over at the University of Connecticut and the Human Development Family Sciences Department. And me and my husband are excited to be expecting our baby from Louisiana. I just started my PhD this past year, and then we got married in November and found out we were expecting in December. So lots of new changes that we’re really excited for and lots of things to consider when it comes to our financial budget.

Income Details

04:07 Emily: Yeah. What a year. What a blockbuster year for you. And it’s only going to get more exciting. All right, let’s jump into this. So let’s cover what are the incomes that you have in your household between you and your husband? And like, what are the pay frequency, the pace schedules for both of you?

04:23 Madeline H: Yes, so I’m on a graduate assistantship through my university is a nine month stipend type assistantship was like a W-2, so it’s not a fellowship. And then we get paid biweekly roughly. And then my husband works at a hospital where he also gets paid biweekly, but it falls on every other week in between my paycheck. So every single week we are receiving some sort of income just about. And then in the summer, during those 2 to 3 months that I’m not covered, we can receive income through our department sometimes, but not guaranteed. And a lot of students, myself included, find some supplemental income as well for that.

05:11 Emily: Wow. I don’t know if I’ve spoken with anyone before whose household has income coming in literally every week between two different jobs that pay go to that is actually really interesting. I’m so excited to get to your budget in a second. Would you like to share your income level approximately or specifically yours and or your husband’s.

05:29 Madeline H: So my school I have a master’s already and so they change how much you make based upon whether you have came in with a bachelor’s degree or a master’s degree or or a Ph.D. candidate, have defended your competence, taking your competency exam. And so I came in with the master’s and it’s getting bumped up to about 28,000. I think, for this upcoming year. Every hour we are unionized. My job is unionized. And so that means that they have negotiated a pay raise every year for us. And so it was 27 roughly this past year and now it’s moved up to 28. My husband’s job pays of roughly about the other 50%. We make about roughly the same per month, and so that makes it really easy for budgeting and stuff.

06:22 Emily: I can see that your income changed a little bit from your academic year income. It sounds like it was a little bit lower over the summer. But you also told me during our prep that your husband’s income is also irregular, even though he’s, you know, paid regularly like biweekly. So how what’s the nature of his irregular income?

06:38 Madeline H: So my husband works hourly and he is a he works at a hospital, so they have shifts and stuff, but his paycheck is by the, by schedule. It’s mostly regular, except every now and then he’ll get double booked or he’s able to pick up shifts or he, with everything with the travel and such, like my job covers for those kind of vacation funds. And it’s a lot easier for me to know like, okay, like if I have to miss a day or such like that covered fairly easily. But for my husband, if he misses any hours or if he has to leave early, those hours might get dropped and such. And so we have to kind of budget for those kind of factors as well.

Budgeting for Irregular Income and Expenses

07:22 Emily: Mm hmm. Yeah. So he experiences both. The upside of you work more, you get paid more. And also the downside of you don’t work, you don’t get paid. So, yeah. Okay, let’s dive into more about how you budget then with this frequent but very, very irregular and challenging kind of income. I’d like to talk both about how you budget for that irregular income and also for irregular expenses in addition to whatever financial goals you have. So however you want to tackle that, let’s get started.

07:50 Madeline H: Sure thing. So I track our spending using Excel spreadsheets. For me, that’s the easiest way. And what I’ve done when we before we even got married, I’ve kind of thought to myself, okay, like how much is it going to cost and how much is my expecting to make for myself and what kind of living situation would allow for us and for myself, even if I were just to live here by myself, Which was the plan the first few months before we got married was to make sure that the living situation I had that roughly that 50, 30, 20 budget that a lot of people kind of discuss about. And so when I did that, when he came up, we made a plan for, okay, you know, you find a job that makes roughly this much if you can try to like negotiate for pay. So this way it fits with our current living situation and this labor able to save. And so the way that I started budgeting was figuring out like, okay, this is how much the necessities cost our rent, our bills, our insurance. I just those are just solid numbers that we had to include. And then figuring out, okay, this is how much we already came in with. For a while he didn’t have a job, so we had to budget and figure out like, okay, what can we afford versus how much are we willing to take out of our savings? And then once he did get a job, I tried to budget to where we were maximizing our savings because we knew that we want to kind of replenish our savings after the wedding and such. And we kind of discussed, okay, like how much are we willing to spend on going out? I did a little bit of tracking, as you have always recommended, of like figuring out like, well, what are we already spending on groceries? What are we already spending on going out to eat and such and figuring out, okay, like, can we live on less?Can we can be budget a little bit more or figure out a way to make those expenditures last longer. So we got like a Costco membership, for example, so we can book by a little bit better to make it easier for ourselves for when we go get groceries instead.

09:55 Emily: So let’s talk more about the the budgeting that and especially with his income being irregular, how how does that work?

10:01 Madeline H: So to kind of account for that, what I do, I tried to make that not be such a stressful factor by having us use a credit card together and making sure that we are both having access to that credit card and to see like how much we’re spending on that. And we kind of talk regularly about like, okay, this is where we’re at in our spending, because it took a while for him to be able to see like what we’re spending. But, um, so even though we are getting paychecks every single week, that actually doesn’t factor into my budgeting so much because we are, we just pay everything on a credit card that we pay off at the end of the month. And but what’s nice about our budgeting practice is that because receiving income every week and we’re also tracking it with our credit cards, we’re able to see like, okay, has our credit is our credit card above what we are currently at in our bank, and then we’re able to kind of adjust. So I can see like, oh, he didn’t make the expected income that we were hoping for that we would have expected for like a full week, for example. And then we can adjust based upon that being like, okay, well maybe we’re just not going to go out to eat this week or we’re going to wait to buy this item that is not in pure necessity. And by that layer next month, for example.

11:17 Emily: Mm hmm. I see. So you’re kind of allowing the spending to accumulate on a credit card throughout the month and you can kind of look at those numbers and compare them to how much income you’re making throughout that same month and make adjustments, as you’re saying. And I assume also your husband might be able to volunteer for extra shifts like you might be able to increases income if he’s, you know, available and healthy and so forth.

11:39 Madeline H: Yes. So so in fact, he’s signing up for additional shifts. So this way we can kind of have a little bit of a buffer with the baby. And because of how parental leave is working for us. 

11:50 Emily: Yeah, definitely. Okay. So that explains kind of how well that explains a little bit of the irregular come and the irregular expenses to a degree because you mentioned maybe deferring some spending that’s not strictly needed to happen right away. Is there any other detail you want to give us about how you’re budgeting for irregular expenses?

12:08 Madeline H: For the most part, that is kind of how we work for irregular expenses. Although every month I also make sure to put a budget itself, a number being like about $100 being like, okay, this is for irregular expenses that we’re not into, that we don’t have like a specific category before. And as well, if I know that there’s an upcoming expense, like I know if we have like a doctor’s appointment or a dental appointment, I put that into our budget and see like, okay, where can we adjust the numbers for other categories when we expect an irregular expense, such as like a water bill or like a doctor’s appointment like that. And so that also gets kind of put into the budget that way for this Labor avoiding creating a habit of dipping into our savings.

12:50 Emily: Okay, so it sounds like in addition to doing the tracking that we were just talking about and the adjusting on the fly, you’re also budgeting proactively. Okay, So the beginning of the month, you can see, okay, here are some things on the calendar or some special things that take some extra money. So you already have a plan for how you’re going to account for all of that, and then you just continue to tweak it throughout the month.

13:08 Madeline H: Yes. That’s exactly what we did.

Savings Goals

13:11 Emily: Yeah, that sounds great. Now, you’re also you mentioned a high degree of savings and so forth. Do you have any like specific savings goals? And let’s maybe leaving aside the maybe I don’t know, we’ll talk about the baby stuff in a moment, but were there any savings goals outside of baby related?

13:29 Madeline H: Yes. So before we found out that we were pregnant, we were planning on saving for my husband to potentially go back to college for a new house. And we wanted savings for being able to travel home since we’re from Louisiana. So making sure that we would be able to visit home at least once a year. Those savings are, for the most part, still existing, but the contributions to them are a lot different. And the new home slash college fund is kind of the same bucket at this point. So it’s more just a matter of like Craig those in addition. And then the third one was the emergency savings fund itself.

14:07 Emily: It might. I don’t know if, I may be projecting. It might feel like a setback to you that you had to put pause or at least reduce these other savings goals you have when you found out about the pregnancy, which obviously takes up a lot of money itself. And now they’ve had, you know, whatever, 15 plus years of doing this budgeting stuff like life is long and things come in cycles. And as long as you keep the habit of saving where it might go and how it fluctuates at different stages of life, that may change what you’re doing specifically for a short time, but you’ll be able to get back to it and like you’ll be able to accomplish those goals. It just might be, you know, next year instead of this year or two years from now, instead of this year.

14:50 Madeline H: Now, I appreciate that, because, yeah, sometimes it feels like that and that’s been part of this whole process of like adjusting what our goals are and trusting what our expectations are and then figuring out like, what are we comfortable in? Like how can we just create like better financial habits, like so and one thing that I wanted to add about the savings is that I have an automated account, like one of them is now automated, like automatically just draws like $10 out, which is not going to be missed. But it’s just nice knowing like, okay, something’s being saved if not even if I’m not always like thinking about her or such like that. So that helps.

15:30 Emily: You know, I think I mean, I think the automated savings is wonderful, but even just the step of having a bucket, like even though it’s different count or sub account within something, having a bucket available to just capture savings itself is a big step, even if you’re not consistently contributing to it. Because you know that if you, you know, ever got back to it or you had a windfall come your way or whatever, you have a place to put the money and like the plan is already like half there, you know.

15:56 Madeline H: That was something that, that was another step that I actually did do. I have multiple savings accounts, so this way I can visually see like, okay, this is what we have set aside for this instead of just being like, we have this big number in our emergency savings account and then thinking that’s only for emergencies, instead of being like, okay, this amount isn’t allocated for this type of expenditure and these amounts are okay to be spent for these other types of needs and stuff. So that helped a lot as well, like wrapping your head around all the numbers.

16:25 Emily: Yeah, and I love that strategy. I don’t use it as much now. But when I was at your stage with the budgeting, like I was using it so intensively and it was really, really helpful. When we were doing our prep call for this, I told you my philosophy of finances around babies, that the things that people maybe don’t notice so much are actually the things that are really, really expensive and that I’m always, like, curious about how people are handling them. So I’m going to ask you about four categories of expenses and how you are going to manage them either now or after the baby comes. Okay. So four categories. Category number one is health insurance. Whose health insurance is this baby going on? Is it going to cost you more? What’s going on with that?

Health Insurance

17:04 Madeline H: So the baby’s health insurance and my husband as well in fact, or his health insurance, they’re both online with my graduate assistantship because I found out that in order to add him to my assistance, so to add him to my my health insurance was only $100 more per month, which is more than what his job offers. But given my health insurance does not have a deductible, it has only a maximum out of pay and it has a very low co-pay. We were like this works really well for us in our current financial situation. And then to add the baby, we were very, very fortunate that there’s only like ten or $20, maybe $30 max out in addition to the current pay that we’re already making monthly for health insurance. So it’s not been the it’s not been a huge addition for having the baby added to and creating a family plan for our health insurance.

17:57 Emily: Phew. That’s great to hear, especially about there being like the low, you know, co-pays and the deductible and so forth. Because when you have a child, that child is going to go to the doctor a lot. So that’s great to hear. Now, I’m curious if your husband was not already on your plan, like let’s say he was on his workplace plan, would adding the baby to your plan be that ten, 20, 30 a month, or would it be the hundred? Is it like the second person or is that specifically that it’s a dependent?

18:25 Madeline H: I think that is specifically that the second person went from a $10 a month to a $110 a month to add a second person, a second dependent, as I put it, if I remember correctly.

18:37 Emily: PSA for you and anyone listening, correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe you have 30 days to get that baby onto the health insurance before you’re, you know, special life circumstance window expires. So I have had people who in that, you know, that fog of New Parenthood have forgotten to add that child to your policy. And it’s a huge headache. So please get your child added within the window your insurance company provides.

Commercial

19:02 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! These action items are for you if you recently switched or will soon switch onto non-W-2 fellowship income as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac and are not having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary. Action item #1: Fill out the Estimated Tax Worksheet on page 8 of IRS Form 1040-ES. This worksheet will estimate how much income tax you will owe in 2023 and tell you whether you are required to make manual tax payments on a quarterly basis. The next quarterly estimated tax due date is September 15, 2023. Action item #2: Whether you are required to make estimated tax payments or pay a lump sum at time tax, open a separate, named savings account for your future tax payments. Calculate the fraction of each paycheck that will ultimately go toward tax and set up an automated recurring transfer from your checking account to your tax savings account to prepare for that bill. This is what I call a system of self-withholding, and I suggest putting it in place starting with your very first fellowship paycheck so that you don’t get into a financial bind when the payment deadline arrives. If you need some help with the Estimated Tax Worksheet or want to ask me a question, please consider joining my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers the common questions that PhD trainees have about estimated tax. The workshop includes 1.75 hours of video content, a spreadsheet, and invitations to at least one live Q&A call each quarter this tax year. If you want to purchase this workshop as an individual, go to PF for PhDs dot com slash Q E tax. Now back to our interview.

Funding Parental Leave

21:09 Emily: Okay, a second expense, your leave and or your husband’s leave. If he’s planning on taking one, how are you going to fund your life when you are on leave?

21:19 Madeline H: That’s a great question. So I’m very fortunate. As I mentioned before, my job is unionized and our union fought for paid parental leave for six weeks. If you have a vaginal birth and eight weeks of you have cesarean birth. And so that will be completely paid for.

21:36 Emily: That’s 100% of your pay or is a lower percentage?

21:39 Madeline H: Yes, It’s 100% of our pay.

21:41 Emily: Awesome.

21:43 Madeline H: And that will be covered for, and we do not lose any of our benefits. We do not lose our tuition waiver. We do not lose our health insurance. It’s 100%, 100% pay. And then that’s, well, relief from work responsibilities.

21:57 Emily: Awesome. And are you planning on going back to work after that six or eight week time period? Or are you taking more time?

22:04 Madeline H: I am planning on returning back because when if I even though I would qualify under Connecticut’s FMLA, which is separate from the federal optimally, it would not. It would not. First of all, I would not be paid. And then second of all, it would not guarantee my tuition waiver. So I would potentially have to pay for the rest of the semester for tuition in order to take up to another six weeks of leave. So we decided that that was a little bit eating into too much into our savings account for that.

22:38 Emily: Okay. I’m glad you’re being paid at 100%. I’m not glad that this is only six or eight weeks. That is a short time period. I mean, in the U.S., we already have nothing guaranteed and whatever. We know how bad the situation is.

22:49 Madeline H: yes, I’m fortunate about that. And then also my department has been extremely accommodating, extremely supportive. They I had mentioned to them what my situation was and I talked with them and they were able to actually get me practically 100% remote of ga-ship for this semester. So even though I’ll be technically working, I’ll be able to do this from the comfort of home and being able to watch over my baby still. So.

23:16 Emily: That is a good benefit. Okay. I’m so glad that you asked for that note to anyone else. Negotiation is always available to you. Okay. And then what about your husband’s leave?

23:25 Madeline H: And then my so my husband, he is a he is at a job that is not unionized. And so Connecticut has a policy in place called the Connecticut FMLA and then also the Connecticut paid leave. They are two separate entities, but they both require that you’ve been working at your job for at least three months, different than the 12 month requirement by the federal FMLA. And the FMLA protects his job so he won’t be fired while he’s taking leave for so long. But then and that goes up to 12 weeks and it can be split however we need to just bye week. So like he could take six weeks off, he could take ten weeks off and one week off. And in the future, for example, as long as it’s within one year of the baby being born. So the CT paid leave is a program that works separately from the FMLA, but very similarly in that a lot of the events that qualify you for FMLA qualify you for the CT paid leave, and that provides supplemental income for while he’s on leave. So at the beginning he will be paid any PTO that he has left and so that will be full time pay and everything. But then once he runs out of PTO, the city paid leave will kick in and he’ll be paid 95% of the current minimum wage, which is $15 an hour, and they’ll be paid 95% of that at 40 hours per week. And then he’ll also be paid the difference between his current income and the minimum wage, and they’ll be paid out 60% for, I believe, 40, 40 hours or however many hours he generally works. I think he works 36 hours actually regularly. So it will be paid out 60% of that on top of that 90% of minimum wage. And so 95% of minimum wage. So that will all be going toward for however long he’s on leave. And that was very big in our financial decisions of whether or not how long we’d be on leave and for who’s going to be on leave and all that.

25:28 Emily: I’m so impressed you rattled all that off, and it just shows you like the detail that really you do need to dive into to understand all the different benefits that are available to you, both through your employer and the state and the federal government and everywhere. So that’s that’s great that you investigated that also thoroughly. And how long do you is he planning on a specific length or is it going to be like more play by ear kind of thing?

25:54 Madeline H: We are planning for him to be offered 12 weeks because we don’t have family in the area and we’re still fairly new in the area. So this way ensures that we’ll have the support that we need or I will have the support that I need. And so but we are kind of talking about whether or not maybe it might be more beneficial for him to take off six weeks and save that for another time in the future, maybe around the holidays or such. But so we’re still playing around with that. But knowing that regardless, like will be covered financially, that is really nice to know. And then I’m still trying to figure out whether or not he will be receiving PTO hours while he’s gone or like how that will kick back in. And so that might also play a role into whether or not we decide to delay further on that leave time.

Child Care Expenses

26:47 Emily: So it sounds like the pay aspect of the leave is not as much of an issue for you too, because you’re going to get your full pay and he’s going to get, it sounds like, pretty close to his full pay, but it’s more the length and it’s when to take it and so forth. So that that will be tricky. All right. Let’s move on to the third large expense, which is child care. So what is the plan for child care when you’re when one or both of you is back at work?

27:12 Madeline H: Great question. So we found out that childcare is very competitive in general. People. My cousin had told me that the minute that you find out that you’re pregnant, you should start looking for childcare. So when we were looking for childcare, I was trying to figure out like what are the general rates? I called a couple areas who’s offering where they located. We found I talked with other parents who are in our program, some other graduate student parents, and they suggested where to go. We’re very lucky that my school actually offers an on campus daycare, but there are some other daycares in the nearby city that the schools are located in. And so I called around both. We ended up deciding on the childcare that’s associated with the campus, not only because of its convenient location being close to me and my own work, but then also because it honestly was one of the cheapest options. It offers a sliding scale based upon the parent’s incomes of any I. Things should happen, especially considering the irregularity of our pays. We might be able to accommodate for that in the future years. And they also offered a legacy aspect which was important to us to ensure we have childcare in the future, something that we had considered. We’re not only the daycare itself, but the daycare is offering of like, well, they were doing it every, every few days be different than full time childcare and like if they offered partial days versus like every other day. My husband though, his job is his schedule is regular but changes every week it’s regular and that every two weeks that repeats and that does not work well for daycare. So we had to pick a daycare that has availability for the child to be there every day. And then we also looked at home care options, but us not being as familiar with the area, we felt more comfortable with the daycare, but we did notice that home care options were significantly cheaper options compared to doing like a full time daycare. But that was so that was something that we also had to consider.

29:20 Emily: That’s awesome. That University of Connecticut offers that on campus option and that it was available to you because I know sometimes those are full, full, full. And that they do a sliding scale. That all sounds really, really good. Are you going to pick up with the child care in the spring semester? Like when is the enrollment going to start?

29:40 Madeline H: enrollment actually we had to sign up for enrollment as early as February of this year. So we found out we were pregnant December. And then immediately I was like, well, and like I said, I hopped on that on that daycare list. And we found out every February is when Connecticut at least changes their rate for daycare. So I had to wait until February to be able to even ask about rate. And then by April, we were we were given a tour and then after the tour they said, you have two days to decide if you want this daycare. And when you do, you have to pay down the first month and then it will be your child will be enrolled starting in August. But then you are paying every single month and you for the entire year. So even though our baby won’t be born until August and will be with us for the first three months, we are already paying for daycare and we’ve actually been paying for daycare since May. In addition to that, in addition past the security deposit.

30:40 Emily: Whoa, I have never heard of that arrangement because you’re basically just paying to hold the spot. Yikes. And if the full rate to hold the spot, poof.

30:52 Madeline H: Yes, we have to pay the full rate and everything. Yeah, I still think it’s like that because it’s like I know that that means that the that the workers are guaranteed pay. But at the same time it’s like I’m paying first of all, my baby’s not even born.

31:05 Emily: Yeah, I mean, at least can you sublet it? Can you sublet the spot?

31:10 Madeline H: I wish. I though about that, we had asked maybe in the, if we do could it in the spring, if we could just sign up and enroll in the spring, but spots wouldn’t be guaranteed. And the difference in pay is so much that it’s about, it was looking around $1,400 roughly, $1,200 to $1,400 depending upon which we had chosen at the time per month versus $1,700 to a part time or the full time for another daycare and the difference in price per month even though its, we’re paying for time when we’re not there, if we need, the baby would need to be in daycare as early as November potentially. And so the savings technically that we’re making over the long term and being guaranteed having this lower cost daycare in the future own out over picking one that we would use for less time at a much higher rate.    

32:03 Emily: Yeah. I mean, I’m sure you were in your spreadsheet doing those calculations and the break even point and everything, but, I mean, you’re going to be in grad school for several more years, so you’re going to need this child care for quite a while. So, yeah, it does make sense. I can see how it would work out that it makes more sense to pay a little bit more upfront to guarantee the lower rate in the long term. Well, that was a tough decision, though, I’m sure, to to pay for a service that you’re not actually quite using yet, But as you said, I mean, the childcare situation is so difficult right now all across the country.

32:33 Emily: And you sometimes you got to just take what you can get, even if it’s a little bit less than ideal in this setup. But okay, Thank you so much for explaining that. Is there anything more that you want to talk about with respect to the childcare costs?

32:45 Madeline H: Yes, actually. So I mentioned kind of the numbers is like 1200, 1400 versus practically its own separate rent to kind of make this fit our budget instead of being like, okay, we’re going to like continue our high savings until we like, can’t I decide that it might be more it might be a better idea for us to reduce the overall monthly payments by spreading it out a little bit more? So we started those payments, like I said, back in May, rather than waiting until August to make the first payment. So this way those payments are definitely fitting within our budget and our monthly income rather than trying to figure out, well, okay, we’ve got to save this much and we’ve got to save as much as we can, and then we’ll take some of those savings later in the future to pay for the excess lays like it got very complicated Those the simpler to be like, okay, let’s make sure that this fits in our current income the best that we can. So that’s kind of how we do savings but ensure that we have the money each month to pay off the daycare.

Budgeting for Baby “Stuff”

33:49 Emily: So you’re kind of you advanced your budget, your budget didn’t need to be doing that just yet, but you decided I want to make sure this is all balancing and all working out. And our fourth and final category is what I call the stuff, which is what people mostly like to talk about when you’re talking about preparing financially for a baby, which is the nursery and the furniture and the, I don’t know, the clothes, the formula, the the gadgets, all these things. So how has the stuff made an impact on your budget?

34:18 Madeline H: Thankfully, it’s been not as big of an impact as as I had feared that it would be, because I found out a lot of doing a lot of research what stuff is necessary to buy immediately, first hand or like buy brand new versus what can be afforded through second hand or be afforded through gifts and registries and what’s common. So we decided that we’re going to wait for to find out the gender of our baby. And that actually plays has played a role in our financial decision somewhat in that when we had a baby and a baby shower, it was really easy for us to tell people like, these are the practical gifts we have, and because people don’t know what gender we’re having, they don’t spend as much money on like trying to get us gendered items that we don’t really need, like baby girl clothes, a baby boy specific clothes. And so they focused a lot more on getting us things like diapers and burp cloth and like little swaddle and such. So that was a that was really useful. And then because we’re from Louisiana, we had a travel, we did travel back to Louisiana for our fam for our baby shower. And we specifically requested primarily for gift cards or money. And so that was really useful for us and being able to determine like, okay, this is how much money we have now that became kind of the budget for the baby. And then and then shopping based upon that, we were very fortunate to have a lot of family support as well. Like my parents pitched in some money. My in-laws have pitched in of helping us buy things that we need for the house. But surprisingly, there’s not very many things you have to actually buy, like brand new, like you want to buy the baby crib brand new. And so that was on our registry. We told people like, this is really important for us to be able to afford because this will be the baby’s bed. But also, too, I’ve joined a lot of Facebook groups that are like the Buy Nothing project or like free items in this area. And that helped tremendously because people surprisingly give out a lot of baby stuff because baby stuff doesn’t last very long in the center. Babies outgrow it very quickly before. It’s not like before. They’re like kind of growth. And so you’re able to like get a lot of toys that way or you’re able to get like a we got a changing table, we got a bassinet, we got a rocking chair. In fact, all of those like free three things. So that’s been super useful. I have also we have have we are part of a free home visitation program that offered free dual services as well as a free diaper bank. That’s part of the Connecticut Diaper Bank as well. So we have access to all of that and that’s been very helpful in like making sure that we can afford everything. So that’s been primarily like how we’ve been managing, affording all the baby stuff, items and such. Also kind of recognizing like what is needed has helped. Like for example, you don’t have to have a traditional crib. You can have like a pack and play, which is significantly much cheaper than having a crib and also much smaller. And so choosing things like that has also been able to help us be able to afford everything that we needed. And then  the timing for, for when we had our baby happen to coincide with buybuy babies big clearance and closure. And so we were able to use that to our benefit of being able to buy some really important things like a stroller and the baby car seat that way. And figuring out things like, for example, the stroller has a car seat, come with it. That was a decision that we made purposefully so obviously we would have a car seat guaranteed and long lasting is during the summer, but having a summer baby worked out a little bit for us as well as that Amazon has Amazon Prime Day during the summer, which I found out about, and so we took advantage of the big sales going on then to when we were purchasing all of our baby items that we finally needed after the showers.

38:25 Emily: Wow. Thorough. Again, I love it. I’m so you’re such a great interviewee on this topic. This is wonderful. And I yeah, I just want to echo like a lot of you said, you probably did not use this as a strategy, but I like it as a tip for other people of like not revealing the gender so you can steer people towards some more like practical baby items that you really need instead of getting caught up in all the cute clothes and all that stuff and that long distance baby shower. I had a long distance baby shower as well, but I was not as intentional about use, about saying like, okay, cash is really something we can take back with us quite easily. Let’s save up for these bigger items. I love that strategy as well. And yeah, it’s kind of surprising. Like babies do need certain items for sure, like the car seat, you know, the you mentioned like a safe place to sleep. But beyond those like few big things, it’s really parental choice. Beyond that, whether you’re going to get things new or secondhand, how much you want to spend, whether you want to have them or not. I mean, I have love them, but I have some very bougie friends who have like the SNU, like, you know, they are able to and willing to spend a lot on their their baby’s first months of life. And their comfort is parents and their baby’s comfort. And it’s just it’s not necessary for everyone. So there’s a lot of agency in that.

Housing and Car Decisions

39:37 Emily: And you know what? Now that we’re talking about this, I have a fifth category of expenses, which is your housing and your car. I’m assuming you didn’t change either one of those, but a lot of people do when they’re expecting a baby. So can you just talk about the decisions around that?

39:52 Madeline H: Yeah. I’m actually glad that you mentioned this because we so we live in a one bedroom, one bath apartment and we had planned to stay in here for the duration of my PhD for the most part. And then like I said, maybe saving for a for like buying a home, but with the baby and everything, we were wondering like, where’s this baby going to go? We luckily have a walk in closet. And we thought to ourselves, Well, maybe the baby can go in there. We’ve decided against that. We actually just rearranged everything in our home to make space for the baby. And like I said, some of the some the living arrangement that we have has also contributed toward some of the decisions that we made, like such as having a traditional nursery space. So we thought about whether or not we might move to a two bedroom, two bath or two bedroom at least apartment. Now, something that was heavily kind of talked about, it’s still something over the bay. But right now this we decided in the end to keep because financially it just makes the most sense. We know that we can afford easily what like our living and home expenses are where we’re at and then and we don’t need to increase that the space fit. We can’t hold our parents as guests, which is a little bit tricky, but that’s been the biggest part. We kind of justify being like, You’re not staying here that long when you come up here. So it’s more important that we have financial security than being able to host our families for like two weeks, every couple of months kind of thing. As far as cars, we decide to keep our cars. We’ve joked about getting a new car for my husband just because we liked a car that we had been in in our honeymoon. But currently both of our cars are, we feel are safe enough. And I primarily take my car around for everywhere anyways. And so the idea is just that we have the baby primarily in my car because it’s going with me to the park where the daycare is. And then if we ever need to, like he has a he has a different car seat in his that a convertible since we have an infant only car seat that came with our stroller. So that’s kind of how we’ve navigated it for us.

42:08 Emily: Yeah, well, I’m glad that we covered that because like I said, a lot of people do choose to get a bigger place or get a bigger or a different car. And I think it’s a little premature just for an infant. Infants are in fact, in fact, quite small. They come with a lot of stuff that they themselves are not very big. And so I think it makes sense because, yeah, you may need to get a two bedroom place, but it doesn’t have to have have to happen this first year, you know, maybe for the subsequent year and the one after that as baby needs, you know, some more space and you two need to get some more space for yourselves, too.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

42:39 Emily: Well, Madeleine, this has been such a wonderful and detailed interview. I think it’ll be super useful to anyone, especially graduate students, who are, you know, preparing for parenthood as well, or just having that irregular income that we talked about earlier. So as we wrap up, would you please share with us your best financial advice for another early career, a Ph.D.?

42:59 Madeline H: Yes. My best advice that I have for someone who is an early career PhD would be to talk with other students who are in a similar situation as you. That helped tremendously for me in figuring out like, what do we truly need? Where can we outsource some of the other options? Understanding, especially as a new parent, understanding how does paid leave work for our department? How does paid leave work for the for the government or for the state? I joined other like communities that where people were familiar with what’s going on in general. My husband talked to his colleagues about a lot of these processes. So just talking with other people who are in a similar situation was extremely helpful and I think that was kind of general advice, but I think that that was just so beneficial and useful for us. And then I guess something that would be more specific towards a Ph.D. and this may be more useful to someone who is considering PhD programs is to really look and consider that quality of life package portion of the Ph.D. like research interest that is super important. But having a livable arrangement is also extremely important for peace of mind, for for us for being able to navigate like changes in life like these and stuff. So I’ve made sure that I’ve read over like all of our health care options, for example, because I knew I was going to be married and I knew that for us, pregnancy was a very real option for us during my Ph.D. So, I want to see like, what would that look like? What what coverage do they have and what kind of protections do they have? So looking into all of that before choosing whether or not to accept a program was really important for me.

44:45 Emily: Yeah. And like, look how how quickly that information came into play for you in this first year. And even just going back that decision of like, can I afford this apartment on just my income alone? And how much like that one decision cascaded through this year and is helping you to afford all these other life changes that are going on. So it’s wonderful. Again, congratulations. Thank you so much for volunteering to come on the podcast. And I’m really excited for all of this wonderful stuff that’s going to happen for you.

45:15 Madeline H: Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure. I’m really happy to have been able to have the opportunity to be here with you and and to share a little bit about what’s going on in my life.

Outtro

45:28 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

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