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This Grad Student’s Podcast Expands Beyond Her Dissertation Topic

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In this episode, Emily interviews Alexandria Miller, and 5th-year PhD student in Africana Studies at Brown University. In 2021, Alexandria started a podcast, Strictly Facts: A Guide to Caribbean History and Culture, to further her vision for educational equity. Alexandria participated in a business incubator program at Brown and joined a Caribbean podcast network, and she’s now considering how to transition to podcast into a business, perhaps in the ed tech space. Alexandria and Emily discuss how Alexandria manages her schedule as a grad student and podcaster and whether she is open about her side pursuit within her program.

Links mentioned in the Episode

This Grad Student's Podcast Expands Beyond Her Dissertation Topic

Teaser

Alexandria M (00:00): At first, it started as a podcast in terms of just being a niche interest of mine in a way to bridge conversations with peers and, you know, others who I think are enthusiast of history and maybe are of Caribbean heritage like myself. But I, as time progressed and you know, I’ve been seeing how it’s grown over the last two years, I’ve really started to think about other ways to really make it a side business in itself and not just a hobby.

Introduction

Emily (00:31): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:03): This is Season 16, Episode 5, and today my guest is Alexandria Miller, a 5th-year PhD student in Africana Studies at Brown University. In 2021, Alexandria started a podcast, Strictly Facts: A Guide to Caribbean History and Culture, to further her vision for educational equity. Alexandria participated in a business incubator program at Brown and joined a Caribbean podcast network, and she’s now considering how to transition the podcast into a business, perhaps in the ed tech space. Alexandria and I discuss how she manages her schedule as a grad student and podcaster and whether she is open about her side pursuit within her program. As I record this introduction, I have just returned from FinCon 2023, which is a conference for financial content creators. It was in New Orleans, and I had a wonderful time and learned a ton! I don’t want to overpromise, but I am hoping to make some changes in the content creation and dissemination aspect of my business, so you can expect some changes like website updates and increased social media content. I’m even toying with the idea of writing a book, which is super scary to say out loud. If you aren’t already on my mailing list, it would be so so helpful to me if you would join so you can hear about all this new and updated content as I’m rolling it out. I would really appreciate the support. As a podcast listener, a great way to get on the mailing list is to go to PFforPhDs.com/advice/ and enter your name and email there. You’ll receive access to a document that contains short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast to my final question regarding my guests’ best financial advice. The document is updated with each new episode release. Again, that was PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Thank you so much! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s16e5/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Alexandria Miller.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (03:24): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Alexandria Miller. She is a fifth year PhD student in Africana studies at Brown, and we’re going to talk about her side business. Really exciting. So Alexandria, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today, and will you please introduce yourself a little bit further to the audience?

Alexandria M (03:41): Definitely. Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Roberts. It’s a pleasure to share with you, especially having been a listener of your podcast for such a while now. So as you said, I am a fifth year PhD candidate in the Department of Africana Studies at Brown. I did my undergraduate work at Duke University in history in African and African-American Studies, so similar fields nonetheless. And in addition to my work as a PhD candidate and all the things that comes with being a PhD candidate, of course, I also founded Strictly Facts, a Guide to Caribbean History and Culture in 2021. So a little bit over two years now, which is a podcast and educational platform just to expand the knowledge and awareness of the Caribbean and its history and popular culture.

Focus of Graduate Work and Podcasting Side Business

Emily (04:27): Absolutely. And so I wanna know how much overlap there is between like the work you’re doing as grad student, like the subject of your dissertation and what you’re doing with this side business. So can you explain any like similarities or differences between those two?

Alexandria M (04:40): For sure. They are not really similar. To put it simply obviously I am a historian and so my PhD is looking at Jamaican women’s history in the 20th century to contemporary times, but Strictly Facts is just, you know, more expansive in a sense. It covers Caribbean history across the region as well as the diaspora. And so not necessarily pinpointed to my specific project in terms of my dissertation, but definitely there have been crossover conversations in various episodes and things to that nature.

Emily (05:16): But it would be safe to say, is it safe to say that your, your passion or whatever inspired you to choose this as your, you know, undergraduate and graduate field of study is also what is fueling the, the side work, is that right?

Alexandria M (05:29): Definitely. I think I have always loved history and have always been looking for ways to see myself reflected in the history that I was alerting. And I think that in large part inspired my path towards the PhD in becoming a historian. It wasn’t till while in the PhD and especially after some years of work that I’ve done in terms of educational equity and accessibility, that I started also thinking of different ways outside of the classroom potentially to expand accessibility and educational equity. And you know, at first it started as a podcast in terms of just being a niche interest of mine in a way to bridge conversations with peers and, you know, others who I think are enthusiast of history and maybe are of Caribbean heritage like myself. But I, as time progressed and you know, I been seeing how it’s grown over the last two years, I’ve really started to think about other ways to really make it a side business in itself and not just a hobby.

Emily (06:30): And I think this is such an, a natural thing that happens with academics, I would say, especially the faculty level, right? But you’re getting a head start in that by doing it at the grad student level, right? Just the taking their subject matter or something broader than their subject matter and pivoting to a different audience outside that academic sphere. So yeah, I think you’re right in good company a lot of academics do this.

Alexandria M (06:53): I do, I would say so I’ve seen several who, you know, have even pivoted outside of academia into social entrepreneurship and things to that nature. I’m still sort of on the fence in terms of where I’d go because I definitely do love teaching and I am sort of looking forward to figuring out what that shift will look like once I finally finished the dissertation. Of course.

Strictly Facts: A Guide to Caribbean History and Culture Podcast

Emily (07:15): Absolutely. Is there anything else that you’d like to share with us about why you started Strictly Facts?

Alexandria M (07:20): Definitely. I think, you know, as a first generation Jamaican American, there have been several ways that I’ve envisioned just, you know, learning about my heritage and where my family comes from that I think has paralleled amongst and across people from other parts of the region. I have a great network of peers and colleagues who are either from the Caribbean or of Caribbean heritage, and we’ve had several conversations across, you know, not only figuring out ways that our histories have been linked but also there are things that, you know, based off things like national and geographic boundaries, the fact that migration, particularly to the global North, is so high for, for people from the Caribbean. There are just several ways that I think learning of Caribbean history and about Caribbean history could be expanded for those from Caribbean Heritage or from the region. And so that was another impetus for me to start Strictly Facts to really expand these conversations and unify all of the community together a little bit more.

Emily (08:26): And can you tell me more about the, the format of the podcast at least? Like is it an interview-based show? Is it solo episodes?

Alexandria M (08:34): It’s a mix of both, depending on probably how busy I am that week. So I definitely have solo episodes where I share a little bit about a topic and offer listeners, you know, additional resources and books and things for listeners to learn more. But I also have interview style episodes where different experts, enthusiasts of history, people have even came and shared, you know, sort of individual or more familial stories and takes on parts of, you know, how their families or even themselves have been part of Caribbean history. So it is really a fun thing in a sense, which is probably why it started more so as a hobby initially, but I’m definitely looking forward to expanding out Strictly Facts a little bit more beyond its podcast in the years to come.

Emily (09:24): Yeah. So going off that subject a little bit more, tell us about, I guess, the structure that Strictly Facts has taken to this point. What, what steps have you taken with it, and then what might you do in the future going forward?

Alexandria M (09:37): Yeah, so as I said, it was more so of a little bit of a hobby in a sense. And so that just meant, you know, me recording episodes and scheduling things scheduling episodes to record with guests. Since then though, of course I have been looking forward to expanding it out. And so I’ve, I am part of the Caribbean podcast directory, which has been a great resource in terms of just, you know, building the podcast community in a sense, helping me get a little bit more familiar with what that community looks like outside of, you know, getting out of my academic bubble sometimes. But also, you know, whether that be crossover episodes with other podcasters, et cetera. And really just growing my listenership. I have also, in terms of more so like the business angle of things, I was a part of Brown’s Breakthrough Lab or B Lab, which is an entrepreneurship incubator. And that really helped me to shift my framing a little bit of how I thought of Strictly Facts in terms of really considering things like consumers and, you know, where do I wanna take it and sort of the business aim, right? Am I looking towards being a solely content based business? What other ways I am hoping to expand out Strictly Facts. So that has definitely been a great help in terms of shifting towards some of my future aims. Of course though, I always say that I have two babies in a sense, finishing grad school and the dissertation and Strictly Facts. So, trying to graduate is on, is the major goal at the time, but I am looking forward to building out other things in terms of content, you know, educational products, ed tech devices and things to that nature in the future.

Brown’s Breakthrough Lab: Entrepreneurship Incubator

Emily (11:25): Wow, okay. I, I would love to hear a little bit more about this like incubator. ‘Cause this is one of those resources that’s uniquely available when you have a position, especially as a student inside of academia that would be very difficult to come by in the, in the rest of the world, right? So like, I don’t know, like what were the other students or other people who were participating in that program? What kinds of businesses were they, were they similar to yours? Were they different from yours that were involved in the incubator?

Alexandria M (11:54): I think in a large part it’s was a little bit over a year now . But it, in a large way, I think there were a lot of people who were definitely in the medical tech space creating apps for medical benefits and devices and things of that nature. So I definitely felt like I was a smaller portion of the incubator who took a sort of different focus in my terms of in, or my definition of entrepreneurship. I don’t think I even really realized it until I started sort of falling into this category that I do definitely have family members who are entrepreneurs who have their own businesses you know, primarily small businesses and what that has meant for our family and the growth and development of our family. And so I have, I used a lot of what I learned both from the incubator and as well from, you know, my own family’s perspective, family member’s perspectives to help figure out where I hope to go in the future.

Emily (12:56): Well, I think it’s just so intriguing that you mentioned like ed tech or like just the, the, I think like the productization like paths that you might be able to take from here. It just by happenstance, literally yesterday I started listening to a, a new podcast and a new to me podcast called Billion Dollar Creator and it’s co-hosted by Nathan something or other who’s the founder of ConvertKit with the email management software, which actually I use. And Rachel Rogers, who’s the founder of Hello seven, the author of the book, we Should All Be Millionaires. And so they’re talking about similar things like once you have sort of an, an area that you have that you’re getting attention in that people are coming to you for information or entertainment or whatever it is, like how can you start to pivot that and not just get paid for having people’s eyeballs on you, but get paid for something that you create from that, like a product or a service or something. And how can you then scale that to a billion dollars? So it’s very aspirational kind of podcast, but I just love that you’re, you know, that you have the opportunity to do this program and that you have these family members and just that you have these examples and influences around you that could help you think like really widely about, okay, this started as a podcast, but where else can we go from here? That’s really exciting.

Alexandria M (14:10): Thank you. Yes, definitely

Commercial

14:15 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! I’m hard at work behind the scenes updating my suite of tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2023. These pre-recorded educational workshops explain how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. For the 2023 tax season starting in January 2024, I’m offering four versions of this workshop, one each for US citizen/resident graduate students, postdocs, and postbacs and non-resident graduate students and postdocs. While I do sell these workshops to individuals, I prefer to license them to universities so that the end users, graduate students, postdocs, and postbacs, can access them for free. Would you please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, fellowship coordinator, etc. to request that they sponsor one of my tax preparation workshops for you and your peers? I’d love to receive a warm introduction to a potential sponsor this fall so we can hit the ground running in January serving those early bird filers. You can find more information about licensing these workshops at P F f o r P h D s dot com slash tax dash workshops. Please pass that page on to the potential sponsor. Now back to our interview.

Podcast Visibility

Emily (15:58): Okay, so you have this fabulous podcast and it’s part of a network and you’re going on other peoples podcast and you’re inviting guests on and so forth, and it’s related to your academic pursuits. So like do people in your program, like either the faculty or the other students, like, do they know what you’re up to? Do they know about this business?

Alexandria M (16:19): They definitely do. I’ve you know, I’ve had faculty members on this show. I’ve had peers on the show. I think my cohort and many of the other students who I’m close with, whether they’re in my program or outside of Brown even have been really supportive of my show, whether that’s, you know, sharing episodes on social media telling me that, you know, oh, I read this great book, have you <laugh> considered having this person on the show, et cetera. And so it, and it is a public podcast, right? It’s across all podcast platforms will soon to be on YouTube as well. So that’s many of the other things I’m working on right now. And so yeah, it is aware, I, you know, people are aware of what I’m doing. I don’t know if they have considered it in a sense, right? I think everybody’s really busy and has, you know, their own their own projects, many other students, but it is definitely a public show and everybody knows what’s going on.

Emily (17:18): How about your advisor or your committee? Have you had any like, direct conversations with them about the podcast?

Alexandria M (17:25): Maybe not necessarily a direct conversation, but it is a public show again, and so I do think many people are still aware of Strictly Facts and, you know, the incubator was through Brown, so there are several things that, you know, if you are interested on wanting to know more, it is all out there. Yeah,

Emily (17:43): I guess I’m just thinking about, you know, some graduate students who have a side hustle want to keep it quiet and don’t want their advisor or their committee or whatever to know about it. So I, I guess maybe for you, would it be safe to say that they’re probably aware and if they had concerns they would’ve raised them by now? Like about how you’re spending your time, for example?

Alexandria M (18:02): I would say so. I, I would think so at least. And it hasn’t been raised yet, so that seems to be a good note. But again, I think the fact that it is sort of in line with my work as an educator, as a scholar also helping me build out my network in terms of my scholarship and where my work will go post graduation is I think also a major plus for the work that I’m doing in this avenue.

Emily (18:32): Absolutely. It seems to be like augmenting your career in this area rather than like detracting from it in any way. Definitely

Time Management

Emily (18:38): Yeah. Well that sounds great. Let’s talk about time management then, because you know, you, you said kind of earlier, oh, it, the podcast is so fun, it’s like a hobby, excuse me. I know that podcasting is an incredible amount of work, plus if you’re not even just thinking about the podcast, but things that like extend beyond that. So please tell us like how, how, how much time are you spending on this? How are you balancing your time? How are you, I don’t know, even like project management stuff, like how, how are you handling all this?

Alexandria M (19:07): Yeah, I mean, I am really big on organization and doing things, you know, well in advance. And so I, I think back to even March, which was like Women’s History Month, or it was Women’s History Month, right? I had that episode scheduled like months in advance and, you know, maybe the listeners wouldn’t know that it was recorded in January or whenever it was. But those things planning has been a big part of the way that I continue to make Strictly Facts and stay on top of all of my other graduate work. So whether that is using, you know, social media manager management services like Buffer or, you know, some of the other similar ones to schedule post when things are going live and all of those things have really helped me. And it, you know, as you said, it does take quite a bit of time to time, make the show, edit it, schedule, coordinate with guests and all of those things, but there are a lot of resources out there that have made the coordination and the planning of it a lot more simple.

Emily (20:12): And I, I know with graduate students, this is certainly the case with me. I was allowing my grad school work to bleed over into all the time and also would allow personal things to bleed into grad school time. It was very like fluid back and forth. I’m much more strict with myself now <laugh> now that I’m like a business owner and a parent. And so I’m wondering for you, like, do you have any like hours that you keep for either grad school stuff or podcasting stuff, or are they separate? Do you allow them to overlap?

Alexandria M (20:42): That’s a great question that I probably should be a little bit more strict and diligent on. I try to, eh, I would, I wouldn’t necessarily say I have hours particularly for either of them. Sometimes it’s, you know, as things arise, I definitely, being that I’m amidst dissertating right now, that is the main focus at the heart of everything right now. But again you know, if it is a Wednesday and we publish episodes every other Wednesday for Strictly Facts, then you know, there has to be some time devoted ahead of Wednesday. But otherwise I, they do probably bleed a little bit, which is always, you know, not necessarily the best organization. But, you know, self-care is important and I think I’ve created a decent balance, at least at the moment of taking care of myself, maintaining this business and grad school as well.

Emily (21:36): And I think it’s very dependent on like the culture that you’re in, right? The culture of academia is a lot of flipping back and forth and transitioning and letting those boundaries kind of slide. And I’ve just found like as now like a full-time business owner that I need to be more strict with myself because again, it’s, it’s very similar to a dissertation. Like the work will balloon to fill any space that you allow it to. So you have to just draw some boundaries and keep it contained. So is the podcast currently monetized in any way?

Podcast Monetization and Ed Tech

Alexandria M (22:03): Not particularly. It’s not being monetized. I have definitely had certain offers, but I’ve wanted to ensure that they really align with my mission and focus at the moment. And I think partially the reason why I’ve reiterated a few times that it started as a hobby was, is because of that it’s not currently being monetized, but definitely again, I do hope to see it balloon into a really, you know, profitable business hopefully in the near future. And so yeah, at the moment it can be seen as more of a hobby or something I’m doing in terms of mere content creation. But again business ownership is something that I think is important to me. Financial literacy and independence is also important to me as well.

Emily (22:50): Well, you always have to lay the groundwork, right? Like it, it depends on the type of business, but I think for the type of business that you’re building, it makes sense that there’s going to be a period of, and especially if you’re selective right, of no revenue or low revenue while you’re figuring out what you want everything to look like. So what do you think the next step will be like? Will it be ads on the podcast? Will it be like, what, what is your next thought in the monetization process?

Alexandria M (23:16): Yeah. I have definitely been open to ads. They just, you know, I want them to be the right one and not necessarily something random just for kicks or anything. I do definitely want them to be in line with the Caribbean education history, things to that nature, but also really hoping again to venture into the ed tech space. So whether that is creating some more of those like digital products you know, I have three nephews and a niece who are always learning and, you know, I’m always engaging with them probably in a sense to give back to sort of like my inner child and having reflected on the ways that I hoped, you know, I hoped to learn or wish I had learned at the time when I was their age. And so I’ve definitely seen what products they’ve have, you know, what my brother and sister have bought for them in terms of their learning and figuring out ways to also input and ensure that the diversity, the Caribbean region itself is also a part of that.

Emily (24:21): Hmm. Can you give us any, ’cause like my mind meant immediately went to like books, right? Even children’s books or, or a book for adults, like, which would be a natural outworking of many people’s dissertations. What like what kind of other ideas are you thinking there in terms of like, yeah, books for kids.

Alexandria M (24:39): I mean, there are books, there are flashcards. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> you know, whether they’re like little alphabet things that has big for one of my, or two of my nephews right now who are two. And so there are things like that. But I’ve also thought of different ways to engage sort of like digital humanities in a sense, but from more so like a children’s perspective, right? So whether that is, you know, apps that are, you know, teaching a different facts about the region and things of that nature. There are, I think a lot of ways that I have toyed with expanding it in the future. But we’re, I’m still, you know, sort of at that idea phase at the moment.

Emily (25:22): Yeah. And like you said, right now the dissertation is project number one, right? To get that to the finish line <laugh>. Okay. Are there any other future plans that you’d like to share with us before we sign off?

Alexandria M (25:35): Not necessarily future plans in the, you know, in a hard line to find way, but there are always Strictly Facts episodes more than 60 to date. So feel free if you’ve never heard of Strictly Facts and want to check out what I’m doing there. We publish episodes every other Wednesday, again, across all podcast platforms, be that Spotify, apple podcast, you know, Google podcast, iHeartRadio, the list could go on. So feel free to check me out there and follow me on all social media platforms at Strictly Facts Pod. And yeah, feel free to let me know if you have any questions or even wanna be a guest on the show as well.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (26:16): I love it Alexandria. Thank you so much for coming on. But before we leave, I have to ask you the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best piece of financial advice for another grad student or early career PhD? And that can be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview or it could be something completely new.

Alexandria M (26:34): Hmm, definitely. I think one for me that has been really imperative on both journeys, whether that is grad school or you know, as a budding business owner is applying for grants and that could be, you know, maybe fellowships or things of that nature from the academic side, but also, you know, business grants, startup grants, et cetera. It has been really helpful for one, in helping me define my projects in either sense, right? Being able to explain what I’m doing, what my passions are, what the goals are of either side, whether that be dissertating or Strictly Facts. And you know, if it comes through, getting a grant or a fellowship is definitely really helpful in terms of just building out your project and however that is, and also creating a little bit of freedom, right? I think one thing for me from the academic side is, you know, potentially like not having the TA for a semester or a year even has really helped me dive into my dissertation, focus on my research and writing and helping me get it finished a lot sooner than maybe possibly if I didn’t have that freedom. And so I think grants are really helpful on either way, right? Whether that is, again, just applying and helping you narrow your focus or, you know, then at the tail end if you are successful helping you branch out and dive into your work.

Emily (27:58): Absolutely. So well put. Well, Alexandria, thank you so much for volunteering to come on the podcast. It was wonderful to meet you, to hear about your podcast and all the best for the growth opportunities in the future.

Alexandria M (28:08): Thank you so much, Emily. Thank you for having me.

Outtro

Emily (28:16): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

This PhD-Prepared Nurse Managed a Night Shift Side Hustle Despite It Being Frowned Upon

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jacqueline Nikpour, who holds a PhD in nursing from Duke University and is currently a postdoc at the University of Pennsylvania. Jackie side hustled with occasional nursing per diem jobs to supplement her stipend during grad school, but her side job also conferred unexpected benefits to her dissertation and career progression overall. Jackie details how she managed her schedule to fit in her research and writing, night shift job, and personal life. Jackie and Emily also discuss how finances are a barrier for many people to even pursue a PhD, how one-size-fits-all prohibitions against side hustling hurts the PhD workforce, and how Jackie advocates for the grad students she works with now.

Links mentioned in the Episode

PhD-Prepared Nurse Managed a Night Shift Side Hustle Despite It Being Frowned Upon

Teaser

00:00 Jackie N: You don’t just exist in academia as a, as a person and have nothing outside of it. Like we are fully complex, complicated, messy humans. And we sort of are the total package that we are. And so I think just creating a little bit more flexibility in place because every student, every discipline is so vastly different.

Introduction

00:28 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others.

00:58 Emily: This is Season 16, Episode 2, and today my guest is Dr. Jacqueline Nikpour, who holds a PhD in nursing from Duke University and is currently a postdoc at the University of Pennsylvania. Jackie side hustled with occasional nursing per diem jobs to supplement her stipend during grad school, but her side job also conferred unexpected benefits to her dissertation and career progression overall. Jackie details how she managed her schedule to fit in her research and writing, night shift job, and personal life. Jackie and I also discuss how finances are a barrier for many people to even pursue a PhD, how one-size-fits-all prohibitions against side hustling hurts the PhD workforce, and how Jackie advocates for the grad students she works with now.

1:46 Emily: I’d like to take this opportunity to invite you to the next Ask Me Anything on mortgages and being a first-time homebuyer with Sam Hogan, which will be this Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:30 PM ET / 5:30 PM PT. Sam is a mortgage originator specializing in early-career PhDs, an advertiser with Personal Finance for PhDs, and my brother. If you are considering or embarking on the home-buying process and have a question about any aspect of it, please join us! That goes double if you have fellowship income, which can throw a wrench in the mortgage approval process. Register for the September session or any upcoming one at PFforPhDs.com/mortgage/.

2:35 Emily: You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s16e2/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Jackie Nikpour.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:51 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Jackie Nikpour she is a PhD prepared nurse, currently doing a postdoc at the University of Pennsylvania. And our topic today is side hustling, especially as a graduate student. So Jackie, I’m really pleased that you decided to join me on the podcast today to talk about this topic and will you please introduce yourself to the audience a little bit further?

03:13 Jackie N: Sure. Thanks so much for having me, Emily. So, like you said, I’m currently finishing up my postdoc at the University of Pennsylvania. I’m a nurse by training, so started my career as a registered nurse in pediatrics, medicine, behavioral health, and then went into grad school, finished my Ph.D., and now working at the Center for Health Outcomes and Policy Research at the University of Pennsylvania School of Nursing. A lot of folks know that as the center that does all of the research on nurse staffing ratios and how that impacts patients.

03:51 Emily: And you shared with me just before we started that you are currently interviewing for a faculty position, so you are pursuing the academic faculty route.

03:58 Jackie N: Correct. I really want to stay in the research realm. Scholarship is sort of my bread and butter. And so teaching is something that I enjoy and I want to do. But my my focus is more tenure track.

Working Before Pursuing a PhD

04:13 Emily: And can you give me an idea of how long you worked as a nurse before you pursued your Ph.D.?

04:18 Jackie N: Yeah. So I would say everyone, every nurse who participates has a little bit of a different story. So I say I’m a kind of nontraditional person, but I don’t think there really is a traditional PhD prepared nurse anymore if there ever even was to begin with. So I kind of always knew from my undergraduate nursing school research experiences that I wanted to be on the research side. And I knew from both my personal life as a caregiver for a chronically ill parent and as a nurse later on, caring for kids from all over the world at Children’s Hospital, Philadelphia, but also kids from Philadelphia who oftentimes were from low income neighborhoods and might not have always had the resources to to stay healthy. I kind of knew that that as a nurse, I was often a Band-Aid for a very broken health care system. So I worked full time for a year and then pursued. I went directly from a B.S. to a PhD or a Bachelor of Science in nursing to a program. I don’t have a master’s degree at some point, and I get one that’s, again, that sounds a little bit atypical, but it’s becoming more and more common. These are more obviously research degrees, whereas a master’s in nursing is much more clinically oriented for the most part, so it’s seen as less of a requirement. So worked full time for a year, went into my PhD program and then we’ll talk about this a little bit later on. But about halfway through, started working as a nurse again in a per diem.

Transitioning From Nurse to PhD Student

05:59 Emily: Yeah. So the reason I wanted to kind of ask for this is because I wanted to know your motivation for taking side, hustling very seriously while you were in your PhD program. And I wonder if it was because you had experienced an income decrease coming into graduate school. It sounds like maybe you did, but it wasn’t like you had, you know, been multi multi year has grown accustomed that lifestyle. You were still kind of in a student kind of mindset, is that right?

06:20 Jackie N: Definitely. But it still was a hit. You know, I worked full time. I worked for a very well-renowned hospital, which is great in terms of the experiences I got. But also I think because of the name of certain well known hospitals, the pay isn’t quite as high. And so I was also long distance with my now husband before we were married at the time. So. So that was a hard kind of financial thing, traveling back and forth from Philadelphia to Atlanta. And I, you know, left that position, moved and went to making probably about half of the income that I was. But I prepared for that. I worked really hard to save up a lot of money as much as I could before I left. I tried really hard not to take as many vacation days as I had available so that they could all get paid out and say I was leaving all things that were a little bit tough but I knew were temporary and would help kind of set me up for success knowing I was going into a PhD program that would not offer the same kind of income support

Doctoral Institution and Stipend

07:30 Emily: And so where did you do your Ph.D. and how much was your stipend when you started?

07:35 Jackie N: I did my PhD at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. And when I started out, Oh gosh, I have to think back, when I started my stipend was in the 35 to 40000 range. I can’t remember specifics, but it was relatively decent. Actually a big reason that I went there was lots of reasons that I pick my program, but it was helpful that Durham, North Carolina, did not have the same high cost of living as major cities like Philadelphia or Atlanta or other places that I was looking at. So that was a cost. You know, that was a driver for me. And as I’m sure it is, and what is for a lot of people. So that kind of went into my my decision making and leading up to starting with the PhD program, I definitely plan out the financial. It’s very uncertain what my outlook was going to look like.

Why Start a Side Hustle?

08:32 Emily: Okay. So it sounds like you prepared really well in that year that you had working to do to set yourself up again for starting the program and you said you started side hustling about halfway through. So what was the reason for it? Was it financial or were there other other factors?

08:45 Jackie N: Yeah. So I would say that there’s a couple of things. One of the, I guess both challenges and opportunities that I had was I was part of a national scholarship program that fully funded my tuition, have some funding for expenses like conference travel, provided extra mentorship, things like that. And in exchange for that, I completed my Ph.D. program in three years, actually, I did mine in two years and seven months, which is very chaotic. But it was good and was not crazy in the nursing field. I would say most people do their PhD between three and five years, a little bit more, a little bit less depending because you’re not in a lab, you’re not really working as an R.A. or TA as much as maybe in a STEM or humanities type of field by job. But all that to say that once I got through the first half of my program, which was very class oriented and I was, you know, really hunkering down during the semester and focusing on coursework, once I got through that and I was no more focused on my dissertation, I had a little bit more flexibility. I think I wanted more clinical experience because again, I’d only had about one year of full time clinical work and I had a really good friend who I was living with at the time and she is very passionate about the adolescents with severe eating disorders population and turned out there was a facility about 10 minutes from my apartment that she started working at and they were really actively hiring folks was right before COVID hit and I decided, okay, you know, if I can do this per diem and sort of make my own schedule so that I’m still, you know, obviously prioritizing my Ph.D. and finishing my dissertation, this might be a nice way to make some extra income. And further my clinical training, which even though I’m focused on the research side, I think having clinical experience to some degree have helped shape your way of thinking. So all of those things kind of came together and supported me in doing that. Then I say it was right before COVID because after I got hired about three months later, COVID hit, everything was remote. So I wasn’t driving back and forth to campus anymore, which saved me some time. So I was doing my Ph.D. kind of discussion work from home and then just driving 10 minutes in and 10 minutes home the next morning because I work night shift sort of on a schedule that I was able to to choose. And you, you know, all of those things kind of coincided, too, to allow me to continue.

Side Hustle Schedule

11:36 Emily: So it sounds like you were really thinking about the side hustle as part of your career progression as well. Yeah, although to me, when you said you completed your PhD in two years and and nine months, it was a bit shocking to hear that you also fit in a major side hustling position once you started really working on a dissertation. So we’re going to talk more about that in a moment. So you mentioned, you know, what your side hustle was, why you decided to pursue it. Can I ask maybe this is a silly question, but working the overnight shift, were you sleeping overnight or were you then sleeping during the day or like how did that aspect of it work?

12:12 Jackie N: So I would really plan my schedule based on what I had going on. So like for example, Monday mornings I was always meeting with my statistician to do the actual, actual quantitative findings from my dissertation. So I wasn’t working Sunday nights because I knew I had to meet with her every morning at not every Monday. So I was planning out my schedule a few weeks in advance based on when I knew that I had a meeting scheduled, I would block off time to work on my dissertation on my calendar and really only picked those nights that I knew I could sleep in the next morning. So I would work 7 p.m. to 7 a.m., get home, sleep until about noon or 1 p.m. and then wake up and kind of go about the rest of my day. The days after night shift were a little bit tricky, so I tried to use those days to get done work that didn’t involve as much brainpower. If you will catch up on emails, Maybe if I had like a paper that I was a coauthor on and I just had to look over it and provide edits, I could do that. But those were not my, like super heavy intellectual working and writing my dissertation days. I sort of staggered those so that I wasn’t doing that. I really only worked probably 2 to 4 nights per month, maybe a little bit more in the summer. But it ended up being about one or two nights a week, if that, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on schedule.

13:49 Emily: What I like about what you said about how you set this up and what I think is applicable to other people who might not be taking on night shifts for their, you know, side hustle or maybe managing it at a different time is how you kind of you said a week or two in advance you would sort of like theme the days like on this day I’m going to be doing my heavy thinking dissertation work, really doing analytical stuff on this day. I know I’m going to be doing lighter work for your reason. It was because your sleep schedule was a little bit disrupted, but for other people there may be other reasons do that just because they maybe learned their own natural energy to the week when they’re going to work best and whatnot. And this is something that I have, I did not learn as a student, but I have only learned as an entrepreneur that like it’s really helpful, I think, to literally the podcast that I listen to, it calls this theme days. So like in my business, I have days when I’m more focused on clients and days and I’m more focused on content and days where I’m focused on business operations and so I find it really helpful not to just be like at any moment I could be doing any work and it’s all top priority, you know, like I know what the priority is for the day. So I really like that about the schedule that you developed.

14:49 Jackie N: I would say looking back, you know, I don’t think I intended to do that originally, but I do think that taking that role on really how my time management skills because I didn’t have a choice and and that was something that, you know, set me up for for success down the line. It not only allowed me to kind of think about how I would approach my week and set up days with, you know, priorities for the day and what that focus was going to be. But it also set me up to be in a better position when I was going for postdocs and even just life in general. One thing I did mention was that I was also planning a wedding at the time, so so that was a huge help for that. It was a huge thing that allowed me to help pay down my student loans during the student loan pause when there was no interest accruing. So it ended up being an incredibly valuable experience and in a lot of ways that maybe I didn’t anticipate when I started.

15:51 Emily: Yeah, is there anything else that you want to kind of add about that? People don’t like the word balance anymore, but the way you worked between your dissertation, work your side hustle, your life, everything else, anything else you want to add about that?

16:06 Jackie N: I would just say that I think it required a lot of intention. I am very lucky that I had a supportive partner, but even if you don’t have a romantic partner, you know, having people that you can ask for help when things get a little bit chaotic and knowing your own limits and knowing like, let’s say someone who is going to pick up a shift, if I knew it was a really busy week, say, you know, I can’t do this. So knowing to ask for help, knowing when you need to back off certain things. And I agree. I mean, the word balance, I think is hard because it’s never like a 50/50 balance of anything. It’s sometimes this is going to take the priority. You know, sometimes I need to be focusing on finishing this dissertation chapter. Sometimes it’s going to be summer and I keep focus a little bit more on making extra money for my wedding? Things like so priorities shift and just being mindful and aware of that. You go along. It’s for me something that I still do. You know, I’m not in a [??] role anymore.

17:12 Emily: And I love that so much. It’s just another way to like sort of broaden your horizons and, you know, get outside of the academic setting and academic bubble through your work and you’re also making money the same time. It doesn’t hurt.

17:23 Jackie N: Which was really, really valuable. And, and one thing that I wish was maybe a little bit more normalized in nursing programs. There’s a little bit of a hush hush kind of policy of you’re not supposed to be working because you’re supposed to be focusing on your dissertation. But stipends are low and often don’t meet the cost of living. And it’s a little bit untenable to expect graduate students who have a very applicable set of skills to not be using them in cases when they’re able to.

Commercial

18:01 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2023-2024 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/speaking/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Side Hustle Policies

19:22 Emily: Let’s talk about that a little bit more. So like, was there an official policy either for your scholarship or in your program regarding side hustling?

19:32 Jackie N: Yes and no. It was a little bit of an honor system in general, I would say, at least in most research intensive programs. I don’t know about teaching or other programs. It’s a little bit kind of hush hush like you’re not supposed to outwardly say that you’re working clinically. You know, I never told my advisor until after I finished my dissertation. Now that she wouldn’t have been understanding, but just that I didn’t want to put myself in a position where I was potentially not being seen in a very positive light. And that’s that was hard. You know, I wanted to grow my skills and I got a lot out of that, like I said, influenced my career and my and my research. For my scholarship program. And we came in, they had told us, you know, you’re not supposed to work more than 20 hours a week, and 20 hours meaning in addition to your your your scholarship and your your studies. But a lot of times people were just not either following that or some universities will require their students, their students, to to pay for 25 hours a week during the semester. And then it becomes a conflict between the scholarship and the school. And you’re kind of caught in the middle. And that’s a really hard position to be in to. The other thing is that if you are, so that was the scholarship that I was a part of, that was through a private foundation called the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. It’s a very large health care foundation. I was not funded as a PhD student through NIH, National Institutes of Health. As a postdoc I am. NIH training grants that fund PhD students and postdocs have a limit that you are not allowed to work more than 10 hours per week outside of your funded scholarship work. And that’s, in my opinion, a little bit outdated because NIH also sets limits on what you are able to be paid annually. And so it was like, okay, you’re telling me this is how much money I’m going to be making and I can’t work more than this amount outside of this. So what am I supposed to do if I’m not meeting ends meet? Like it’s just is a little, and there’s ways I think to to kind of I don’t want to say get around it, but like for example, I was a co-investigator on a study and ended up doing the the brunt of the actual work in terms of we did qualitative interviews. I led a lot of the quantitative analysis and we ended up with an extra, I think like $500 on the grant. And it was just used to sort of compensate me for the additional labor that I took on. So that’s not like a quote getting around it like that. It’s perfectly legal, if you will, but there’s other situations in which that’s not a tenable way to exist as a PhD student or as a postdoc. And so I think that’s a big structural barrier that a lot of people are kind of calling on NIH to address.

23:13 Emily: What would you put forth as like your preferred policy? Like, would there not be a number, like a ceiling on outside work or like, Well, because we all like, I think everybody is in agreement that the Ph.D. work, the dissertation needs to be the number one priority. And the person, whether as a position or as a postdoc like, you know, be making progress towards whatever your goals are and whether it’s side hustling that has gotten in the way of that or whether it’s something else has gotten in the way of that, like the student or postdoc and the supervisor need to make sure that that person is still on track. So what should what should the language be?

23:47 Jackie N: That’s a good question. And I don’t know if I have a specific this is what it should be instead of this, but I do think that it should not be a one size fits all case because this is the case across all NIH, NIH has 27 institutes and centers and these students and all of those kind of areas of research look very, very different. And nursing is a great example, right? If we’re told you can’t work more than 10 hours a week outside of your scholarship postdoc work, well, nursing shifts are typically 12 hours in line. So you’re telling me I can’t pick up a 12 hour shift on a Saturday or Sunday when I’m working 40 hours Monday through Friday? Like that’s it just wasn’t designed with that in mind because it was designed to be a one size fits all case. So I think it’s about maybe tailoring some of these things for each discipline or each university or I think what I’m seeing just more broadly and a lot of college programs is mentor mentee sort of informal kind of contracts where each party, each mentor mentee kind of shares what that relationship is going to be like and what each person’s responsibilities are and creates an opportunity to come up with an individualized plan for your development as a scholar. And when those are in place, I think that does open the door to more conversations like, Hey, listen, advisor, I really need to make extra money. Not only, you know, because my stipend is as low as a student, but what about people who have kids or what are people who have aging parents or other kind of life things going on that that they need to be able to support, you know, those sorts of things I think need to be addressed because that’s what you’re bringing to the table, right? You don’t just exist in academia as a, as a person and have nothing outside of it. Like we are fully complex, complicated, messy humans. And we sort of are the total package that we are. And so I think just creating a little bit more flexibility in place because every student, every discipline is so vastly different.

Structural Barriers in Academia

26:13 Emily: Yeah, I’m starting to, as I’ve put more and more of my own focus on advocacy and not just on like the personal of personal finance. I’m seeing the finances of PhDs as a workforce development issue. And you kind of brought this up earlier, like who gets to do a Ph.D.? Who gets to the completion point of a Ph.D.? And the finances can play into this in terms of what populations even are able to pursue that. So can you talk a little bit more about that?

26:40 Jackie N: Absolutely. I think there are so many structural barriers that limit even who is able to get in the door in academia. And I have colleagues who are in the very position where they’re low income, have family in a different state or in some cases in a different country, oftentimes are trying to send money back home to support their low income families. Maybe not may not be able to afford a car, especially in a place like where I was in Durham. I had friends who they couldn’t afford to purchase a vehicle, which was hard because it’s a very car dependent place. You know, there wasn’t a ton of public transportation available. And so that impacts even the time it takes you to get to class and how long you you have to study and get stuff done maybe in the morning before classes or how long it takes to get home. And that’s just the timing takes away from other things that you could be doing, including your dissertation or assignments. Are there is the caregiver aspect that we just talked about. There’s so many things, plus the fact that, you know, this is a very low wage job because that’s what it is. It’s a full time job. You know, you’re still a student, but it’s work. And and there’s just so many people who I think we lose out on in all disciplines because they are not able to turn their lives upend their lives to complete the demands of a program. And there’s no resources in place to support so many of them.

Advocacy in Academia

28:29 Emily: So the side hustling could help, Right? Side hustling is a bit of a Band-Aid. Like ideally NIH, everybody else would just pay people enough that at least most situations you wouldn’t need a side hustle. Now, in your case, we just talked about side hustling had other advantages besides the financial and that’s awesome. So can you tell me, is there anything you’d like to add about how you advocate now for other PhD prepared nurses around being able to side hustle so they should they so choose.

28:55 Jackie N: Absolutely. I think, you know, I’m still in a postdoc role, but I do have students who I sort of informally mentor and like, for example, I work on on one project that is a clinical pathway. We support patients who are insured by Medicaid in discharging home from hospital, make sure they get the support resources they need so that they’re not readmitted. We have grad students who work on our data collection, who run our weekly case conference meetings, who do a lot of that labor. And I’m always, you know, encouraging them and watching them make sure you’re keeping track of your hours, make sure that you are submitting for all of the time that you are eligible to be paid, because we want you to get as much money as you as you are entitled to right like you’re signed on for 10 hours a week. Like make sure that you’re actually submitting those 10 hours per week. I am. I work a lot with trying to make sure that, let’s say when we hire doctoral students, research assistant, what is the maximum amount that we’re able to pay? And let’s pay them off because first of all, that’s grant money that needs to be spent anyway, number one. Number two, I know what it’s like to be in the position. I was in it very recently myself and so I would say a lot of that advocacy that I’m doing is just within my own kind of world and those students that I work with. But it’s also showed me a lot about the kind of mentor that I want to be, Let’s say when I have my own PhD student advisees. I want to make sure that I’m creating a culture where I know what my students needs are and they need to work to support that and support their families, then I’m going to work with them to make that happen. No matter what we need to do, we’re going to get it done. I think myself and a lot of other folks, anytime there’s like an NIH open comment period about how we support career postdoctoral trainees who are funded through NIH, I really make an effort to to comment on those sort of open forums and give examples of here’s what let’s say raising the stipend for each, let’s say first year, second year, third year each has its own kind of stipend, years of experience. Raising those that could help support so many things that actually contribute to better scholarship because you’re not spending ten, 20 hours a week doing this other work. So that’s part of it. I will also say that, you know, this was not my case, but I know folks who were in student unions as students, I will say in one case in a major cities like New York and L.A., where cost of living is super high, it’s actually a little bit of a disadvantage if you want to get an NIH doctoral funding award because the stipends for that would be lower than what you would get as a stipend just by being a physician at the university. And so that’s a barrier because getting those awards sets you up to be competitive for postdocs and faculty candidates. And so that’s creating space to dismantle some of those structural barriers that prevent people from even entering academia in the first place and then developing the best science that they can.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

32:23 Emily: Love it, Jackie. I think we need to leave it there. The hour has flown, so I want to ask you the last question that I ask. Of all my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early career? It could be something that we’ve touched on in the interview already, or it could be something completely new.

32:39 Jackie N: I would say the best advice that I can give to anyone financially going to a PhD program is just to plan as much as you can for the years ahead. You know, you’re in a PhD program, you’re already going to be, you know, I think I don’t think there’s been a PhD student who’s never been stressed out. So you’re already going to be stressed out about figuring out your dissertation, finishing your coursework, getting all the things that you need to to to get your degree. You know, you don’t want to be stressed about finances, too. I think when I first entered my PhD program, I was so I need to know exactly what my dissertation question is going to be because I’m on this three year track and I don’t know what I’m going to do, how I’m going to have enough time. I wish I hadn’t been so focused on that and I had, you know, more so narrowed my focus. I mean I did to some extent, but just planning out and budgeting. Okay, what realistically is my income going to be? How can I save up as much as I can and prepare to not have this be a stressor when I’m in the midst of everything else? And that also includes knowing, you know, sorry, but that also includes knowing about what life is with taxes as a PhD student, because it’s very, very different than I expected. So just knowing what to expect, I think, again, your your website and your your content and your podcast is a great way to support incoming PhD students. So just the preparation involved is what I would say.

34:14 Emily: Well, Jackie, I love that advice. It’s been so wonderful to talk with you and thank you so much for volunteering to come on the podcast.

34:20 Jackie N: Of course. Thank you for having me.

Outtro

34:27 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

Why and How These Graduate Students Side Hustle

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In this episode, Emily presents first-person stories from grad students who side hustle. The volunteers were asked this set of questions: What is your motivation for having a side hustle? What is your side hustle? What are its benefits and detriments? How much do you earn through your side hustle? If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started? You’ll hear from eight volunteers in total throughout this episode, and perhaps be inspired to start or expand your own side hustle.

Links mentioned in the Episode

Grad student side hustles

Teaser

00:00 Anonymous #1: Some places might give you entirely free housing. Some places might be like mine where you get like a 50% off for your housing rate. I find it to be beneficial because that’s money that I get to keep for myself that I can invest in my Roth IRA that can be used for my own spending, that can use for a traveling for leisure, because we know we get started as graduate students. So it’s really important that I take breaks and have that extra money so that I can invest for my future and take those much needed breaks

Introduction

00:33 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 15, Episode 1, and today we’re featuring first-person stories from grad students who side hustle. The volunteers were asked this set of questions: What is your motivation for having a side hustle? What is your side hustle? What are its benefits and detriments? How much do you earn through your side hustle? If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started? You’ll hear from eight volunteers in total throughout this episode, and perhaps be inspired to start or expand your own side hustle.

01:34 Emily: By the way, there is still time to volunteer for one of the compilation episodes coming up later in the summer, specifically the episode on negotiating your individual grad student stipend and the episode on unions and unionization movements. If you have a story to share on either of those topics from the last few years, please email me at [email protected].

01:59 Emily: I’m beyond excited to announce that I’m offering a brand-new live one-hour seminar titled “How to Not Hate Your Fellowship During Tax Season.” It’s all about how to understand and properly handle your fellowship stipend that will not be reported on a Form W-2, which is what I call awarded income. Awarded income typically doesn’t have income tax withheld from it, which can become an unwelcome surprise and even financial hardship if the recipient is not taught what to do starting with their first paycheck of this type. In addition to teaching about estimated tax and self-withholding, I give pointers for preparing for and navigating tax season with awarded income. This seminar is intended to be taken during orientation or shortly after by people who are switching onto awarded income for the first time, so it will be exclusively available between August and October of this year. If you are starting on awarded income in the fall and your university doesn’t withhold income tax—or you’ve dealt with that scenario in the past—would you please recommend this seminar to your fellowship coordinator, program head, or graduate school? Please cc me [email protected] so I can pick up the conversation. My goal is for every grad student receiving awarded income to be forewarned about this issue before it rears its ugly head during tax season!

03:29 Emily: You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s15e1/. Without further ado, here’s our compilation episode on side hustling.

Shan Kutagulla: Technology Incubator

03:46 Shan K: My name is Shan Kutagulla at the University of Texas at Austin. I’m getting my doctorate here. I have a masters and did my bachelor’s at USC in Southern California. I do materials research for semiconductor and energy. Energy topics.

What is your motivation for having a side hustle?

04:08 Shan K: Yeah, my motivation for side hustling, I think like everyone else is to make a little extra cash. But in addition to that, it’s trying to get some skills that I wouldn’t necessarily get in the lab. I think for me as an engineer, I think soft skills are always going to be one of those things that engineers tend to either stereotypically or realistically lack.

What is your side hustle?

04:29 Shan K: So I work for my campus’s technology incubator, so that involves a lot of interviewing people, talking to founders of companies. So that really helps develop a lot of soft skills and then also gives me exposure to the business side of things. So it’s a little kind of rounding out the skill set in addition to making making some cash, which is always, always needed in grad school.

04:54 Shan K: So it’s through the school UT is I think one of a couple of universities has like technology incubator associated with it. So if any, any graduate student or any or founder really has a good idea that they kind of want to commercialize those, take research and spin it out into into the real world. So that the issue with that is a lot of people start applying to those positions or applying to the incubator to have their company incubated and they need someone to kind of bridge that gap between the technical side of things, which is just is this technology legitimate versus the business side of things, which is will this technology survived the competitive landscape.

05:35 Shan K: So this is something through UT that I applied for because I have an interest in going into like technical due diligence in the venture capital industry upon graduation. So it kind of helped you build that skill set. But I got this through just a relentlessly applying. I actually got rejected four times in a row and I got it on my fifth try.

05:53 Shan K: So it’s just an exercise in persistence or knowing someone I don’t really know, but I but either way, it worked out and it’s a really fulfilling position, I would say. And it’s just like a one of a couple of things that I do on the side to get some extra cash.

What are its benefits and detriments?

06:11 Shan K: Yeah, I mean, drawbacks are always going to be like the time, right? Any time, especially in grad school, any time you do a side hustle, it’s time taken away from research, especially if you ask some professors, thankfully not mine.

06:23 Shan K: And then, I mean, benefits always just be like the people you meet. Networking is a huge part of grad school, I would say opens a lot of doors as I would definitely say one of the things people warned me about grad school is that it closes a lot of doors and they can’t do anything else. I don’t necessarily think that’s true. It’s open a lot more doors and I had before and it’s a lot of people I just would not have met without applying to these these side hustle positions like I get to talk to The leader, the technical director of the incubator directly on a weekly basis. I talked to the president at university every now and then a lot of people in industry, academia, I get to help define mission roadmaps. I was invited to do an article on semi analysis. None of that would have been possible without without a side hustle. And so it’s been very, very fulfilling.

07:14 Shan K: But yeah, the cons would just be the time commitment really. So if you can make your own schedule with a side hustle, that’s probably a huge benefit that I didn’t necessarily have. But those are the pros cons that that you’ve got to weigh. So maybe that’s that’s some other advice that I have. Just do something that you really enjoy. Don’t don’t take positions that would just be incredibly bored in. And don’t find any fulfillment in.

How much do you earn through your side hustle?

07:39 Shan: This one actually only pays 15 an hour. I work for a startup too, one of the start-ups that we have right now on pay is much better. It’s like 40 an hour. So yeah, but again, one of those doors that’s open that allowed me to go work at a startup, right.

If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started?

07:54 Shan K: Every major city has a technology incubator Los Angeles where where I went to undergrad has Los Angeles and Los Angeles Clean Tech incubator, Austin Technology Incubator in Austin Obviously Boston has a bunch. So like if you’re in one of these major cities where they exist, just go Google who the director is of your respective verticals if you’re interested in energy, semiconductor, whatever. Google them, find their email surprisingly easy to stalk online.

08:24 Shan K: Just email them and be like, Hey, I’m a grad student, especially if you’re trying to do technical due diligence, email them and be like, Hey, I’m a grad student. This university interested in technical due diligence because a lot of times those incubators are staffed with like business people who have a lot of business experience, but they don’t really necessarily do technical due diligence, which is a very specific role that only PhDs can really fill. And then that’s why you see it a lot of like hard tech investing firms like Kleiner Perkins, it’s always staffed by PhDs on due diligence. It’s just to avoid if they’re in a situation and there’s there’s not that many people who can do that. So they’d probably be very willing to take your help and don’t be afraid to work for free for like a couple of months, but then you can kind of push on them.

Anonymous #1: Graduate Housing Community Assistant

What is your motivation for having a side hustle?

09:10 Anonymous #1: So I am a pre doctoral student at University of Rochester. I’m a second year and my motivation is really based on seeing how much my parents were able to save or their parents are immigrants. And so I’ve seen them working very hard on my life and not getting the most pay. But I also want to make sure that I’m setting myself up for financial freedom in the future so that I can, you know, as lofty as it is nowadays on a home one day as well as save my retirement. And so those are my biggest goals. I want to set myself up for a positive future financially.

What is your side hustle?

10:17 Anonymous #1: So my side hustle is working with my university’s graduate housing department. Through them, I work as community assistant, so I get to not only socialize with people that are also going to my graduate school, but I also get a very good deal on my rent. I get about half off for my rent and it really does help considering how much rent has skyrocketed in the past couple of years.

10:44 Anonymous #1: Like all across the country, especially in New York State, it’s just gone up. It used to be that you could get a studio for under 800 across the board in this area and now that is no longer the norm. You have to be outside of the city. And because I want to live as close campus as possible, I decided to go for this position with graduate housing because I knew for me and my schedule didn’t make my commute easy as possible was in my best interest.

11:17 Anonymous #1: Coming from a major city, I knew commute can be 45 minutes plus on public transit. I was not willing to do that for my Ph.D. because I need to focus on my studies. So what if I to do this? It’s and it’s very relatively easy. I’m doing an A one event per month and a meeting here and there, introducing people to the right to resources that the university has. So for the money I’m getting off of my rent, it is it’s a very sweet gig.

What are its benefits and detriments?

11:43 Anonymous #1: So the main benefit is the financial discount that I get on a rent, I get half off for my rent charges. So that’s the biggest benefit. I also get to socialize more and meet other people in my community. Moving to a new city. I did not know anyone here, so I was able to use this as a way to socialize with other people at my graduate school. I would say that if you do have the opportunity to be a graduate housing assistant, I would highly recommend it. If you’re someone that likes planning events then and interact with people, I’d highly recommend it. It’s not something that I that I find to be very tedious.

12:21 Anonymous #1: Some places might give you entirely free housing. Some places might be like mine where you get like a 50% off for your housing rate. I find to be beneficial because that’s money that I get to keep for myself that I can invest in my Roth IRA that can be used for my own spending, that can use for a traveling for leisure, because we know we get started as graduate students. So it’s really important that I take breaks and have that extra money so that I can invest for my future and take those much needed breaks. Because I’m on a training grant so I can’t like have a job or an hourly wage. So this is like, ah, this is my way of going around that. So I have to abide by the PhD rules, but also I need to live my life.

13:06 Anonymous #1: Some of the drawbacks are just the logistics of hosting an event, having people turn out thinking and brainstorming new ideas that are both interesting to busy PGD and master’s students, but also attainable for me as a as another busy Ph.D. student to test, to schedule and plan for. So those are like the biggest cons that I could think of.

13:35 Anonymous #1: I really do enjoy like event planning, and if I wasn’t interested in STEM, I might have gone down this route because making sure that I check off all my boxes and doing things in a very organized manner is something I really enjoy doing. And yeah, those are the only those are the only drawbacks. I really enjoy this position and it’s not very difficult for me. I am a social person, so meeting people, introducing them to the to the grad housing area is not something I think of as a hardship.

How much do you earn through your side hustle?

14:04 Anonymous #1: For this year, for 2022, 23, I’m getting a rent reduction of $555 every month. I have a one bedroom apartment and the rent reduction is a flat rate for all graduate housing assistance. And so I think they calculated based off of a to a two bedroom apartment. But I have a one bedroom and I get charged $944. So I’m paying less than $400 for my rent every month, which without roommates, no one that I know has that that charge at all. And I only work about 10 hours per month in total, I’d say in terms of planning, brainstorming and hosting events, the events only last 1 to 2 hours, depending on how many people are there. And so I guess the hourly rate that I calculated based off of that is $55 per hour.

If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started?

15:00 Anonymous #1: So the first thing I would look into is if your university does offer graduate housing, not every university does offer on campus graduate housing. So looking into that first and then once you do find out that your university does offer it next thing I would do is look to see if they have any job openings. Usually those job openings will be posted sometimes throughout the semester, but primarily during the move in and move out periods around the summer and winter time, depending on how university work. If you’re on the quarter system or on like a semester system that could also be dependent on when they post those job openings. But because grad students will graduate in December is often going to be opportunities for people to get these positions. And then once you do find out when they tend to post positions, email the contact person so that one they know you’re aware and two that you’re actually very interested in the position and gives a bit more of a of a of an idea. I think when they’re looking at your application, they’ll recognize that, oh, this person emailed me several, several weeks ago saying that they were interested and they scheduled an informational interview with me to go over the, the requirement for the position that’ll sort of put you in their mind, which is something that I did to me to sort of better ensure that I got the position because I very much wanted it.

16:20 Anonymous #1: And then going through the regular interview process. And if you do have any skills in terms of event planning or a previous housing related occupation or internship or or what have you. That will also better you for being chosen for the position.

Ariana: Pet Sitting

16:20 Ariana: My name is Ariana. I’m a fifth year Ph.D. candidate, the University of Virginia, and I live in Charlottesville, Virginia.

What is your motivation for having a side hustle?

16:58 Ariana: So my motivation for side hustling is the obvious one. Money. I’m I was really in need of some supplemental income especially as I my program fifth year the time a lot of applications of preparing for a big move coming up so it was that and also trying to think about what I could be doing as a side hustle for the longer term.

What is your side hustle?

17:21 Ariana: My side hustle is pet sitting. Primarily dogs and cats, but I am open to a range of other animals.

What are its benefits and detriments?

17:28 Ariana: So there are so many benefits, but also some considerations of pet sitting. First is that I love animals and as a person who has a cat not a dog, it’s nice to be around dog energy and just get to meet very sweet animals around my community and honestly see places I haven’t seen before. So I’m walking them around and all that. It’s also a pretty flexible gig. I mean, usually things settle around weekends and on breaks, but as a graduate student, especially in my later years, it’s been nice to be like, okay, I’ll go do a midday walk or something like that. It’s also a job that again, it’s flexible in the nature that if I don’t want to do it for a month, I could not do it and that would be okay. I’m my own boss in that sense, and there are apps that help you to find people and vet them and give you all the support you need.

18:20 Ariana: Drawbacks are definitely that like I’ve been dissertating and even with the flexibility of like it’s been hard sometimes and it can definitely become an unintentional or intentional avoidance strategy to be with pets. It’s also time away from my apartment, my home so a lot of the chores and things that need to get done often have to be delayed because I’m spending weekends with other people’s pets and I kind of like that too. So those are some of the consider.

How much do you earn through your side hustle?

18:54 Ariana: My earnings can really range depending on how committed I am to getting things done. I think it would be possible to get about 25, like if I would just walk, for example, 25 to $50 weekly, it’s only really do 200 a month, but house sitting or pet sitting where I’m staying with them, that can look more like 500 or so dollars a month if I’m doing every single weekend. And that’s another consideration. It’s not the most I’m not flowing in money rather like it is a lot of time. But those like additional benefits, getting to walk outside, having to play with the pets kind of adds to the compensation for me.

If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started?

19:41 Ariana: If you want to be a pet sitter, it’s actually easier than I knew. So I was recommended by my cousin who is a lab technician. But there are apps like Wag and Rover which have a really streamlined system for getting you involved. I mean, I’d recommend, of course, having some comfort with pets, but you can get reviews or sort of testimonials from family members and friends and other folks who you may be pet for on the regular. I would say that’s where I started. I was doing more just ad hoc pet sitting for other grad school friends and then really expanded into this, I would say to just be thoughtful about what you’re comfortable with. You don’t have to sit at people’s houses, but I feel pretty comfortable doing that because of all these safety measures are in place and people are really folks who want someone to care for their dog, kind of wants you to feel comfortable as well. So I would say those are the quickest ways. So I’m sure they’re, you know, you can advertise your services on a neighborhood group or something like that and get some direct referrals.

20:48 Ariana: I was going to say that’s another drawback of the piece. So doing the apps I would say is a great starting step because you get screened, you build up your reputation, but they can take about, you know, if I charge $17 for a walk, I’ll probably get 13 of those dollars. So I can’t do the percentages really quickly. I’m not a math PhD, but it’s notable. And so when you do that over time, something like that and it’s not nothing. So but what I found, which I appreciated is after like one successful stay, a lot of folks are okay with going off the app, and just paying me directly. And likewise, like I trust them and I’m comfortable just reaching out. I have all the information that I need. So while I think it’s an upfront cost, it doesn’t have to be a continuous cost. Just you’re trying to get a lot of clients.

21:43 Ariana: I wish I’d started earlier, with the side hustle, I mean, it’s really hard when your schedule’s more packed with things, but I think it’s the type of side hustle that is really relationship and community based and can be a good way to get integrated into a place that as a grad student I know I was like in my room or studying in the building. So that was really nice. And I would say that it’s not it’s actually kind of a nice little mini retreat, You know, I can be in someone else’s home or space with WiFi working on things, and that’s been kind of nice too.

H: College Consulting

22:29 Emily: This submission is from H a fifth year humanities PhD candidate on the east coast whose stipend is $40,000 per year.

What is your motivation for having a side hustle?

22:37 Emily: Quote, my motivation for side hustling is two-pronged. Part of it is to have the extra income. This allows me to save more. I’ve maxed out my Roth IRA every year since I got the job and I get a 7% match into a 401k with a 3% safe harbor. So I effectively save 17% of my pre-tax side hustle income. This is great because my stipend income isn’t eligible for a 401k and wasn’t eligible for Roth IRA contributions for the first couple of years of my degree before they changed the rules to make stipend income eligible. The savings are reassuring for me because I hate the idea of graduating from my program in my early thirties. Seriously behind on retirement savings, especially as job prospects for humanities, PhDs are pretty precarious and usually poorly paid.

23:23 Emily: I find it psychologically reassuring to have savings for when I finish my program, but it’s not just the savings. The extra income also allows me to have a nicer lifestyle than I would if I were living entirely off of the stipend. I don’t feel like I’m missing out because of my income. I’m admittedly a person who likes certain luxuries, like getting my nails done or having a wine subscription or going on vacation a few times a year that are out of step with a typical PhD lifestyle and need some more cash to fund. I like that I don’t have to bow out to plans with my friends who have higher paid jobs just because I’m in grad school, I can go on trips, go to weddings, go to a nice dinner, et cetera. I know plenty of grad students who enjoy living simply and don’t want missing out on those things, but they’re important to me.

24:08 Emily: The second reason is job security. I’m very conscious of how few decent academic jobs are out there. I have witnessed very talented scholars totally flounder on the job market and then panic when they have to rapidly pivot into a new plan with little or no work experience and a lack of obviously marketable skills. Understandably, this leads to a lot of anxiety and depression. I find it petrifying. I don’t want to be in that situation. I hang onto my job so that if I finish my PhD without anything else lined up, at least I have this. I like the job and would be fine to keep doing it while I figured out some other move post-degree. I think having the jobs gives me some security, both materially and existentially along with my main side job. I also have done other fixed term gigs to develop a more diverse skillset.

24:57 Emily: My goal is to make sure that I have recent work experience on my CV after I graduate and talking points for informational interviews. Besides just my research, I don’t wanna be in the position. I see many people in where it’s like they are graduating off a cliff and they have no idea what comes next or how to prepare.

What is your side hustle?

25:15 Emily: For my main side hustle I work in private college consulting. My company provides advice to students applying to university programs, working with clients around the world with a special focus on US colleges. My role involves mentoring students in their final year of high school as they work on their college essays. It’s almost all remote though. We do team retreats once or twice a year.

What are its benefits and detriments?

25:36 Emily: There are a lot of benefits. It involves two of the main areas. I enjoy working in education and writing. I love the colleagues I work with and I love almost all of my students. It’s a pleasure to get to know them and I learn new things about the world from them. I feel like they grow as people throughout the process of us working together, even when they don’t end up at their dream school. That makes it rewarding to me. It’s a great counterpoint to my independent research work because it’s people focused and the impact feels immediate. Unlike an abstract and long-term dissertation project, when I’m deep down a research rabbit hole on my own in the library, getting on a zoom to talk to a colleague or student is a breath of fresh air. Sometimes I feel that having a second job makes grad students more efficient. Anecdotally, I find that up to a point, the ones who have less time seem to manage it better. The drawback is that it’s highly seasonal work and I’m often having to be on email for several hours a day September through December.

26:34 Emily: It’s tough when it overlaps with the holidays and the fall semester crunch time. This was especially true in my second and third years when I was grading finals and writing my own papers and attending conferences simultaneously alongside my job. The nature of the work means that I just have to respond if students are down to the wire on their deadlines and my academic work has suffered in those moments, but not badly enough that my advisors said anything. I’m still on track to complete the degree in time and have been successful in my program. It’s a bit easier now that I’m ABD and more in charge of my own schedule. I have the freedom to organize my time around the busy season. The benefits to me are money and setting myself up for future careers Outside academia, the drawback is the stress and risk of burnout that can come with being over committed and the risk that spreading yourself too thin means not doing as good a job as you could have on your main gig. Personally, I’m okay with that. My approach works for me and my priorities, but plenty of grad students I know would hate it.

How much do you earn through your side hustle?

27:34 Emily: I earn $45,000 annually on salary for the college consultant gig for which I am technically part-time. This is after several raise negotiations. I’ve been at the company six years now and started on 30 k. I get a Christmas bonus of $1,000, also paid for my laptop in the busiest season. September to December. I work 20 hours a week, and in low season it can be four to 10 hours a week to get started in college consulting.

If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started?

28:00 Emily: To get started in college consulting I cold emailed a bunch of companies and ended up going with this one, but had offers from others. I’ve heard of someone getting into the same type of role after being reached out to on LinkedIn. My university list serves, sometimes sends out listings for similar roles. I would recommend trying to connect personally with people rather than applying into a black hole, but then applying to a few places. I imagine that experience working with students as a TA or in a writing center would be really helpful, but if you have no relevant experience, try doing it on a volunteer basis first. I know if people getting these jobs after doing pro bono work, finally, it’s a fundamentally credentialist industry. So if you have a degree or two or three from a very competitive school, that will help, end quote

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28:44 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2023-2024 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/speaking/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Courtney: Landlord

30:04 Courtney: My name is Courtney and I am a third year Ph.D. student in civil engineering at Oregon State University in Corvallis, Oregon.

What is your side hustle?

30:12 Courtney: My side hustle is renting out rooms in my house.

What is your motivation for having a side hustle?

30:16 Courtney: I do this to supplement my research assistant income and pay my mortgage.

What are its benefits and detriments?

03:21 Courtney: It’s a study dependable form of income and helps reducing my house, my housing costs dramatically. Besides occasional banking and paper work is a very passive source of income taking care of a house. It’s hard work, but when you have tenants, things have to be done in a timely and high quality manner with their living conditions in mind. For example, we recently replaced the roof and had to include them in the discussions of what the condition of the house would be during the construction.

How much do you earn through your side hustle?

30:52 Courtney: Since I co-own the house, I also split the rental income. So I make $650 a month and I already pay quarterly estimated taxes for my fellowship anyway, so I calculate this income into that as well. But I also use tax deductions for housing costs by following form 1040 schedule E, which actually lays it out really nicely.

If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started?

31:17 Courtney: This side hustle requires the purchase of a property which is quite an undertaking. It requires some dedication to understanding rental laws in your state and city. But after that initial setup, having yearly tenants who stick around makes the side hustle low energy input for high rewards. I started this two years ago and I plan to continue the side hustle until I graduate in a few years. At this point I probably spend about 3 hours a month on managing tenants and their needs.

31:48 Courtney: If it feels impossible to buy a house look into co-borrowing or a first time homebuyer financial help in your state or county, and check out Emily’s other podcast on grad students buying houses.

Anonymous #2: Research Assistant

32:07 Emily: This next submission is from an anonymous grad student who is about to start intern year and lives in Texas.

What is your motivation for having a side hustle?

32:14 Anonymous #2: What is my motivation? Having a side hustle. I would say as a graduate student, I just needed money. And while I was grateful for the system that I received from grad school, it just wasn’t enough to be able to travel, to visit family, just to have a little extra cushion. And then now that I’m moving out of state for internship without my side hustle, I would not have been able to afford it at all.

What is your side hustle?

32:40 Anonymous #2: I am a research assistant at a hospital.

What are its benefits and detriments?

32:43 Anonymous #2: Some of the drawbacks of position, I would say, is for the spring semester balancing my schedule. There was a lot to do when it came to doing my internship interviews, wrapping up my final semester, in the state that I live in and just trying to balance my schedule, I would say is one of the drawbacks. Benefits of that are just having money, having a cushion. As I mentioned before, I am moving. I’m single. I’m moving from the states I live in to another state and I feel very fortunate that I’m not worried about affording my move. I am not worried about like the cost of a U-Haul or having to borrow money from relatives or like take out a personal loan. I am solely financing my move from the income I receive from my side job.

33:38 Anonymous #2: I would say in terms of how this will like this position will impact or like play a role in my future career. I’m the type of hospital that I work at is type of setting I would like to work in in the future and this population as well. Also, I can probably request letters of recommendation and from my bosses, and I think it gives me a lot of insight into the type of field that I’ll be working in the near term care.

How much do you earn through your side hustle?

34:12 Anonymous #2: So I’ve been at this job since, I guess like orientation was in December and I make about 25. I make $25.83 an hour and 20 hours a week. And so I would say after tax, before taxes, I take home about 2000 a month.

If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started?

34:34 Anonymous #2: If someone’s looking to pursue this type of position or just a side hustle, indeed this a great source when it comes to looking for research assistant jobs that are flexible that are part time. I also recommend especially if you’re interested in research or just want to get some clinical, reaching out to PIs at different hospitals that might. They don’t always broadcast like that they’re hiring. And so reaching out to them and inquire like, Hey, you know, I’m so-and-so, I’m looking for a job, or I’m interested in any position you might have available. And that’s even better. That’s kind of how it worked out for me, where someone put an email out there for, like you said, Assistant Do you know of anyone? I responded back and I know me and I’m looking for a job.

35:28 Anonymous #2: I would say finding that balance in your schedule is really important. I and also having some flexibility. So during the semester I was working like in the middle of the week and now the semester has ended I requested a shift in the schedule so I could work the first Monday through Wednesday, which is helpful for me so that I can get other things done before the end of the week. But also I think just there was some delay. I work for the government and so there’s some delay when it came to my application process and not on my end, but just governments and and I, I very much communicated with my prospective supervisor and let them know like, hey, I filled all the paperwork. I’m just waiting to hear back. It took six months to actually get hired to start the orientation, to start the onboarding process, even though I was hired back in the summer of 2022. But I think for me, patience was a virtue and really just showing up and being present at work. And I’m confident that in the near future when I’m applying for postdoc positions, if I request a letter of recommendation from any of my supervisors here, they will happily write it.

36:43 Anonymous #2: Now that I am no longer contracted at my university as a grad student. The month of June is my last month. I’ll be working here. I’m just working here and I am so fortunate. Like I know I’m not like another. You know, I have peers that are either married or they’re receiving like, Oh, they have a partner or they’re receiving support from their family and like, I don’t know. So financially like, I take care of myself. So and I know for a fact that I would not be able to move 1500 miles from where I am now. Had it not been for this job, because the money I received, the the grad student through my stipend was great. It covered all of my bills and like maybe an extra $100 or two. But over the course of six months it would not have been enough to pay for UHaul to pay for moving boxes and also to and in my case, you know, oftentimes we apply for housing. They want someone who on paper earns three times the rent. And so if I did not have this job, I would have likely had to reach out to a relative to cosign my lease, which is fine. But, you know, it’s a hassle having to ask someone to do that again and again, especially if they’ve been like, So supposedly they’ve done it. You know, for me throughout grad school, it’s nice to kind of feel a little more independent.

DreVon Dobson: Professional Musician

38:08 Emily: This submission is from DreVon Dobson. Quote. I’ve recently graduated with a PhD in pathology from UNC Chapel Hill, studying the genetic regulation of blood coagulation factors. I’m about to start a postdoc position soon in environmental toxicology, studying the effects of ozone exposure on health and disease outcomes.

What is your motivation for having a side hustle?

38:29 Emily: Having a side hustle has been a great way to give my mind a break from my lab work, as well as supplement my income as a graduate student, which was livable but not great.

What is your side hustle?

38:39 Emily: My side hustle is performing as a professional musician. I minored in jazz studies on the saxophone and undergrad and I’ve kept my passion for music alive as a side hustle. I play at churches, country clubs, weddings, et cetera, with a few different bands usually on the weekends.

What are its benefits and detriments?

38:56 Emily: The benefits of this are that it provides a constructive and profitable outlet for my passion and it’s fun. The detriments are that there’s a considerable amount of preparation involved in order to play the gigs well, practicing learning, music, purchasing and maintaining equipment, et cetera. Also, the gigs can consume a good amount of my weekend depending on how far and how long they are detracting from my ability to rest for the upcoming work week. But you can also say yes or no to opportunities to fill your needs and schedule.

How much do you earn through your side hustle?

39:26 Emily: I have worked my way up to earning about $20,000 a year from my side hustle. This is definitely on the higher end for a part-time musician and I had to work my way up to that over the years. This is generated by about two to three gigs a weekend averaging out at around $200 a gig.

If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started?

39:46 Emily: Pursuing this side hustle is totally obtainable. If you are musically inclined, you can start by visiting local jam sessions in your area to figure out who might be in need of your musical talents. There are also online avenues to pursue in local Facebook groups and ads and websites like Reverb Nation Beyond Music. If you have a passion for the arts, there’s most likely a way to monetize it. You can sell art, join a dance troop, audition for a theater production, et cetera. I have found artistic passions and scientific studies to be a great combination of financial gain and life balance. I would encourage anyone who is interested to give it a shot. You never know.

Dan Gorman: Chaperone, Podcast Recording, Writing Lesson Plans

40:31 Dan G: My name is Dan Gorman. I am finishing my PhD in US History this summer at the University of Rochester, and I also live in Rochester, New York.

What is your motivation for having a side hustle?

40:41 Dan G: My motivation for side hustling is solvency. Uh, while we had pretty good PhD stipends at my university, it’s still, you’re living in sort of comfortable poverty as a PhD student, I find, and for some people it’s less comfortable. I stay comfortable in my case because I don’t have any dependents. Um, it’s just me in my household, but there’s always wanting to have more than just a little bit of extra money in the bank account, wanting to have something of a cushion. Um, especially as we got towards covid, I was glad to, I had done some side hustling and saved up some extra money. Sometimes the, when I say solvency, I mean, yes, paying the bills also, it’s good once in a while to actually do something fun with your assets, but also I, I think mainly my main reason for wanting to save up money was in case of an emergency. You know, if somebody got sick and I needed to go visit them or, um, you know, during covid when we just didn’t know what else was gonna happen next.

What is your side hustle? How much do you earn through your side hustle?

41:33 Dan G: My side hustle isn’t really one thing. What I recommend to other people is sign up for as many internal newsletters at your university as possible and re and actually read them. Um, I found a number of paying side opportunities within the university just by being on the newsletter feeds for different offices. Um, for example, okay, so the Office of Undergraduate Research a couple years ago they were sending a delegation of students to the National Conference on undergraduate research. And an opportunity came up that they would wanna send a couple staff or grad students as chaperones. Um, it was a pretty easy job. I had to go to Oklahoma City for four days, but they covered all my expenses and there was a small honorarium. It wasn’t a ton of extra money, but it was there and it was an experience that I could say, Hey, this counts as teaching and advising and mentorship.

42:22 Dan G: Another example is that I had joined a professional group for graduate students through our music conservatory, but they’d opened it up to graduate students in other divisions. It was called working PhDs. So they were doing professional readings and interviewing people about how they transitioned into alternative academic jobs. And as part of that, they launched a podcast called Working PhDs. And so by recording interviews for that, I was paid I think $75 per episode and I did three episodes. So then that was, it was over $200 extra. Um, so we’re, I’m not talking about huge amounts of money here, but finding bite-sized projects like these internally, um, if you do enough of them, they do start to add up to some extra cash.

43:04 Dan G: And again, $200 may not sound like a lot, but that could cover, you know, depending where you live, that could be internet, your insurance bill and something else for the month. So it’s not, it’s not nothing. Um, looking beyond the university, I think sometimes it comes down to professional networks and signing up. So again, it’s, I don’t have a very original method, but it’s signing up for the listservs for your professional organizations. Um, an opportunity came up a couple of years ago actually during the pandemic that, during that first pandemic year where some friends of mine were working on a digital library project, um, at Northern Illinois University, which is, you know, 800 miles away from me. But they said there they needed people to write sort of lesson plans for their, for their website. It was pairing archival old books that were scanned with how you could teach it in the classroom. And then you, we would present it digitally and that came with a $600 honorarium.

What are its benefits and detriments? If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started?

44:01 Dan G: Um, and again, I don’t have a magic method for finding more of these except, you know, in my case, in my field, in the humanities, get on h net, humanities net, um, sign up for the main feeds which post every day, 10 to 20 calls for papers, podcasters. Sometimes you’ll see independent editing projects and, you know, it can be a little tedious cuz then, you know, you’re, you’re deliberately spamming your inbox both from internal sources and then from external professional organizations. But there are opportunities out there. It’s not a lot of money. Again, these are small, usually project based. The $600 for the, uh, the lesson plan was that’s at the high end of what I’ve gotten, but smaller bite-sized projects that you can fit in without massively impeding your own studies. Or if you have a more prominent work study job that you know you’re doing 10 to 20 hours a week. Um, I think writing that lesson plan and presenting it, I think it took maybe six hours total over the course of a couple weeks. Um, because the book was a dime novel. It was quite thin. Um, so your mileage may vary.

45:07 Dan G: Other challenges, I think also, again, that oftentimes these bite-sized academic projects, whether they’re at your school or somewhere else, they tend not to pay a lot. Um, you know, we’re talking one to $200 US users really. But the flip side is that if it’s a bite-sized project like that, you can do it quickly and it doesn’t really impede on your main work responsibilities at your university. And that was, that was the big thing for me. So wanting to find ways I could use my skillset, um, make some extra money, but also where it wouldn’t become such a massive time sink that people at the university, my supervisors would be saying, Hey, you’re not focused on your main work. Ultimately, I would say that the kinds of projects I’ve described are not ways to make a lot of money, although there are exceptions. Like if you become a writing tutor, you will make a good hourly rate doing that. However, they can give you unique experiences and give you some more in business parlance transferable skills and deliverable outcomes that you can say you have produced when you’re going on the job market.

Outtro

46:14 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

This Grad Student’s Side Business Pays Twice What Her Assistantship Does

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In this episode, Emily interviews Natilie Williams, a PhD candidate in communication at the University of Missouri, keynote speaker, and author. Natilie established her business prior to starting her PhD and was up front about it with the director of graduate studies from the beginning, which has been to her benefit. At times, her business has brought in double or more what her assistantship pays, which has been vital for her financial health and security during graduate school. Natilie manages her time and schedule fastidiously using a planner to excel in her graduate program and business.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

S12E2 image for This Grad Student's Side Business Pays Twice What Her Assistantship Does

Teaser

00:00 Natilie: I was able to, once you added in book sales, you added in speaking, yeah, I was able, at some point, I made maybe like two and a half times my assistantship, almost three, by being able to do these things and elevate my speaking career. Expand it, so not just speaking, but then also a book.

Introduction

00:25 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 12, Episode 2, and today my guest is Natilie Williams, a PhD candidate in communication at the University of Missouri, keynote speaker, and author. Natilie established her business prior to starting her PhD and was upfront about it with the director of graduate studies from the beginning, which has benefitted her. At times, her business has brought in double or more what her assistantship pays, which has been vital for her financial health and security during graduate school. Don’t miss Natilie’s description of how she manages her time and schedule to excel in her graduate program and business.

01:35 Emily: I have a gift for you if you’re not yet subscribed to the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list. At the end of every interview, I ask my guest to give their best financial advice for another early-career PhD. My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. The document is even organized by topic so you can easily see which type of advice is most popular. I invite you to join the mailing list to receive access to this document through PFforPhDs.com/advice/. I hope this quick, powerful resource will help you up-level your finances this summer! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s12e2/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Natilie Williams.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:38 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Natilie Williams. She is both a PhD student and a professional public speaker and author. And so I’m really excited to learn how she’s managing her business as well as her career as a graduate student. So Natilie, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for volunteering! And would you please tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself?

02:58 Natilie: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I’m super excited. I am a fourth-year doctoral candidate. I’ll actually graduate in just two months, so I’m very excited about that. So, I’ll graduate in two months. I am at the University of Missouri in Columbia, where I am finishing up my PhD in Communication with a focus in Identity and Diversity, and also maintain an assistantship there. I actually recently accepted a professor position in the Midwest. And so I’m really excited about that. And I also have the privilege and the honor to serve as a keynote speaker across the country on student leadership, collegiate success, and academic and professional development. And then that wasn’t enough for me. I also wrote and published a book called Innerview (I N N ER): Lessons in Leadership. And so, really excited about the book. And so, it looks at how we can use moments of reflection in order to enhance ourselves as leaders.

04:00 Emily: Wow. I can already tell, I wish we had another interview to do all these other topics on like, and actually hear from you and your, you know, the main topics that you speak about because that sounds absolutely fascinating. We’re going to keep it more focused on like you as a graduate student and having this business and how you’re doing both of those things at the same time. Hopefully get some good gold nuggets for the listeners who also have businesses that they want to run as well as being graduate students or PhDs. But congratulations on your faculty position! That’s really, really exciting. And yeah.

04:29 Natilie: Thank you.

Getting Into Public Speaking

04:29 Emily: So, that’s awesome. Let’s kind of back up a little bit. And how did you start speaking professionally? Did this come like before graduate school or since you started graduate school? How did you come to that?

04:40 Natilie: Absolutely. So I started speaking professionally about three months after I received my master’s degree. So I had a really mind-blowing experience. I did my master’s thesis on a TV show called A Different World, which was a spinoff of The Cosby show. And it was a very much so like a staple in like the Black community. Like that show ended May of 1993 and it is still talked about now. People still dress up as the characters for Halloween. And so I did my thesis on that show, and I got surprised by The Steve Harvey show with actually meeting the cast because they did a reunion. I talked about my thesis and it was just like this big national, even international thing.

05:20 Natilie: And so where I went for undergrad, Central Michigan University was like, “Hey, we have this freshman orientation leadership program and we want you to come and serve as a keynote speaker. And we want you to talk about your old leadership experience you had on campus as an undergrad. And we know that you just had that really cool experience with A Different World. Do you think you could tie that in as well?” And so, I did it. I keynoted in front of about 300 plus people. And at the end of that keynote, I had lines and lines and lines of students waiting to talk to me afterwards. And that was the moment where I realized it was more than just me being good at speaking, but it was truly a part of my purpose. And then I eventually learned, maybe months after that, the business side of speaking and was able to start it as a business and turn it into a very much so awesome, successful career path.

06:13 Emily: And so, I understand from our prior conversation that you had some years in the workforce between when you finished your master’s and when you started your PhD. So that’s kind of when you were learning, as you said, the business of speaking and growing that part of it. Is that right?

06:27 Natilie: Absolutely. So with the master’s, I was working for a corporate organization part-time and then once I graduated, they actually hired me on full-time. And when they hired me on full-time, I worked there for about two and a half years. So during the time where I started my speaking career, I was working in corporate and I was actually teaching as an adjunct at night because I was still living in the same town where I got my master’s degree from where I also had had an assistantship that paid for my master’s degree. And they were like, Hey, we know you’re still here in town. You did really good work when you were teaching for us. You want to come do it at night? And so I was really able to use my corporate job to fund my speaking career to start funding the business, right? The website, the photoshoot, different things of that nature. And I had my adjunct position as well as some extra savings. And it got to a point where I was working corporate where I was like, I don’t want to do this anymore. I’m not a fan of this position. And I actually realized that I’m a geek. I love to read and write. I want to go back to school and get a PhD and still maintain and enhance my speaking career.

Speaking in the Collegiate Circuit

07:34 Emily: That’s a great thing actually about sort of side hustling or having your own business generally. It can be on the side of different full-time things. You can have transitions in your career and take your business with you as you go through this transition. So that is awesome. And so, your niche about speaking, you said you’re on the collegiate circuit. So do you speak mostly to college students? And you mentioned leadership earlier, like what are kind of the general topics that you speak about? And did it come from that initial engagement or how have you, you know, expanded since then?

08:04 Natilie: So yeah, it’s come from the initial engagement. It’s also come from my own collegiate experience that has really propelled me as a leader and have taken advantage of opportunities and so, and networking. So like mentorship, relationship building, leadership despite trauma, Greek leadership, Black and multicultural Greek leadership, first-year experience. So how do you even plan out your college career? Whereas you can take over the campus, what are some resources and opportunities that you should take advantage of as a college student? So studying abroad, pre-professional programs, networking with professors, and things of that sort. So those include some of the speaking topics, professional development, preparing yourself for your career path. What can you do in college to prepare you for post-graduation? So those are some of the speaking topics. And it’s on the collegiate circuit as well, but I also am starting to do more stuff with high schools and middle schools as well, including like that social and emotional learning component to leadership. So, it’s starting to expand greatly.

Time Management as a Grad Student and Business Owner

09:12 Emily: That’s awesome! Now I want to hear about you as a graduate student, and also as a business owner. And since you started the business back when you had a full-time job and another part-time job, you probably took some lessons from that in terms of time management and so forth. But I’d love to hear about how you’re applying them now as a graduate student. Like, how are you managing your time and your energy to make sure that you’re doing both these things well?

09:35 Natilie: Absolutely. So I believe it’s time management and also time prioritization and time stewardship. And so figuring out what’s important right now and how much time do I need to allocate to it. But for me, coming in as a graduate student, working on a PhD was really new to me because I had never done that before of course. And so my first thing was, I need to understand what’s the lay of the land. How much time do I need to dedicate to this because it was in-person and it was full-time? And so for me, I really had to figure out what I didn’t know. And I looked to upperclassmen to see how much time are you all spending on readings and coursework? What’s the writing load like? And so I actually sort of, kind of, when I first started the doctoral program, I took very few speaking engagements that first semester, because I was like, I need to focus on this program.

10:31 Natilie: And once I learned that I could balance my coursework and my speaking career, it was all she wrote after that. So it would get to a point where I knew my schedule perfectly. I knew when I had to teach. I knew when I didn’t have to teach. I knew how long it would take me to get to the nearest airport. So I was about two hours from the nearest airport and it would be sometimes I would literally get done with class as a doctoral student. I would have my suitcase packed in my car. I would drive two hours to the airport. I would fly out to go speak. That same day, when I got done off the stage speaking, I would fly right back, finish work as a doctoral student, maybe teach that morning as my assistantship, and I would do it all over again. So I really learned my schedule perfectly. And I would do my papers sometimes on the airplane, do my class readings in the back of the Uber as I was going to my hotel to speak. I would sometimes get to my hotel the night before, so I could do my coursework. And so I really got the timing down perfectly, and I always keep a planner with me. So I knew due dates for assignments as an instructor, and due dates for assignments as a graduate student as well.

Schedule Flexibility

11:47 Emily: I’m not that familiar with like your field. So like, what is the nature of the research that you’re doing? Like is a lot of thinking and writing and reading? Or do you have to like, be certain places aside from like the teaching component? Like, do you have to be certain places at certain times? Like how flexible is your schedule, I guess?

12:02 Natilie: Very flexible schedule. So, as a doctoral student, I study communication. Specifically, I’m more of an interpersonal and family communication scholar. Specifically, I look at what’s called voluntary care relationships. And so those are relationships that have no biological tie, but because we say they’re family, they’re family. So your best friend that you consider your sister friend or your childhood nextdoor neighbor that you may have considered your cousin growing up because you all have known each other for the past 20 years. Godparents and things like that. And so I look at that, but specifically within the context of Black families and Black people and the validation process of those relationships, the impact of them, and the benefits. And so, I’m also a qualitative scholar. So I spend the time interviewing people and things of that sort. So that’s my research interest. And when you’re doing the interviews, you can, you know, do them over the phone and things like that. So, I had a lot of flexibility except for the fact that my coursework was in person. So I just, I knew how much time I had to drive to the airport right after class. I knew how much time I had to board the airplane. So I really just really got it down to a science.

13:16 Emily: That’s amazing. I don’t <laugh>, I don’t think I’ve ever gotten near that degree of specificity with like my time blocking practice. But it’s because I have much fewer, I think, constraints on my life, especially prior to becoming like a parent. Like once you have like that the parenthood stuff going on, I know it’s like a thing that’s said like, you know, mothers become like the most efficient workers you’ve ever seen because they have like, so limited time to like, do their work and then they have to do these other things. So like, but even that, like, I’m not to the degree that you just described, like time blocking. So I really like admire that. It sounds like an amazing skill to have.

Speaking Engagements During COVID

13:53 Emily: And how, like, during this time that you’ve been a PhD student, you know, you mentioned that you took very few speaking engagements at first when you were kind of getting the lay of the land. But then how has your business grown over the past few years? And I’m especially wondering how things have changed with COVID, because you just mentioned you were doing in person speaking. I assume that at least changed for some amount of time for a while. So how have things been going, you know, since starting your PhD?

14:15 Natilie: So as soon as I got the understanding of my schedule and the timing, I hopped right back on that road and it, I just, I knew if I had class, if I didn’t have to teach or my own classes on a Thursday or a Friday, I knew Wednesday night I could go fly out and come right back. And so I started to just be intentional about the different conferences I would present at, in front of students. But then also too, with the decision-makers present, understanding how many decision-makers will be present during that networking piece. And that networking piece, allowing decision-makers to meet me, sit in on my sessions, get to learn more about the learning objectives with my presentations, whether it was a workshop or a keynote, that really allowed me the opportunity to continuously to grow on the speaking circuit.

15:02 Natilie: And with the topics that I speak about, leadership and student leadership on the collegiate market, it’s not as many young black women doing what I’m doing. And so, I’m standing out, right? And I’m doing very well with speaking as far as the mechanics of it. And I was able to and still am able to get my name out there. And so that allowed me to grow my speaking engagements. And you also mentioned about COVID. Well, when COVID hit, I was in my mind, I first thought that this was literally the end of my speaking career. And I said, well, you know what? I had a great run. I did a great job. If that’s it, I went out with a bang. And I actually saw my business boom, shortly after. Like months after. And my mind was blown. I’m like, wait a minute. But I realized that these schools were like, we still need people to encourage our students.

15:53 Natilie: We still need people to give our students the how to. It’s now a virtual space. And so I was able to sometimes do two engagements in one day I could do one in California, one in Florida virtually and not have to leave and not have to also invest in travel expenses. And so, 2021 was probably one of my most profitable speaking years yet. And I think this year is probably on top to beat that. It’s definitely on top to beat that. And so, yeah, I was completely blown away by it, completely blown away. And once I finished coursework for my PhD, it was <laugh>, it was all she wrote. I was able to do a lot more. So I didn’t have to be in the classroom as a student. I just had to teach. And so I was able to have even more free time to get out there and to maximize my opportunities to get in front of my target audience.

16:47 Emily: Yeah. I’m so glad that your business has grown through COVID as well. I’ve observed the same thing. My client base has expanded. It’s so much easier to set up speaking engagements without having to do all the logistics of the travel. And you know, my schedule’s a lot more open, as you were saying, because the travel’s not there. So I’m free to accept engagements that are closer in time together than they used to be. And it’s been strange because I had the same reaction like, oh I can’t travel anymore. I’ve got to pivot. <Laugh> like, what else can I do in this business aside from speaking, because I’m clearly not going to make money from speaking anymore. No, that was not at all the case. Once people kind of got their bearings, the bookings started coming in again. So it’s really been like amazing and I’m so grateful, and grateful that it’s happened the same way for you.

17:27 Natilie: Thank you!

Commercial

17:30 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2022-2023 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/speaking/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Business Income vs. Stipend

18:52 Emily: Let’s talk about money. So, you have an assistantship. I don’t know if you want to share how much you make through that. Feel free if you’re comfortable. But how does your, like the money that comes in through your business compare with like your stipend?

19:05 Natilie: Yeah, so with an assistantship so Hey, when I left corporate, I left corporate, I quit the job. I had saved up $15,000 over the timeframe that I had worked there. Especially when I knew I wanted to leave. I was like, well, I’m no fool. I need to, you know, I need to be able to live. And so I saved up $15,000 and then I got this assistantship. And this assistantship was paying me literally a third, one-third of what I made in corporate. And for me I’m like, I will figure it out. Like that’s one promise I’ve made to myself is that I will always be okay financially. Legally, financially, correct? And so yeah, so with the assistantship I was making like a third of what I made in corporate.

19:50 Natilie: And with speaking, I was able to, there were some times where I was literally making whatever my assistantship was, I could make double that with speaking. So I was literally making double my assistantship with speaking and still had my assistantship. And so for me that allowed me to realize like, okay, I can do both of these things well, and I’ve always been a saver and I knew that I would need, you know, I would need to live after I graduated. So I was able to prepare for life post-Graduation. And then also writing a book while I was in the doctoral program and releasing the book and also having book sales come in. So, I was able to, once you added in book sales, you added in speaking, yeah, I was able, at some point I made maybe like two and a half times my citizenship, almost three, by being able to do these things and elevate my speaking career. Expand it, so not just speaking, but then also a book. And so, yeah.

20:54 Emily: It sounds to me like, you know, going into your PhD program, it was never like a question that you would give up the speaking. Like, it’s part of your career now. But I’m just wondering like, had you come into graduate school and not had a side business, is your stipend even enough to live on? Like, are your peers living on it? Or do they all have like side stuff going on or taking out student loans or depending on family members? Or like what’s going on financially in your program, I guess?

Transparency with the Department

21:19 Natilie: Yeah. Most of them, they definitely, they hustle. When I say hustle, I don’t mean it in a bad way. But they’ll take another job. They’ll teach somewhere else. They will, some of them have maybe like a significant other, so they’re able like to split costs. But for the most part, we definitely, as part of our program, we look for other ways to bring in that additional income. And so for me, I came in as a speaker and I made sure that that was something I promised myself that I would not give up, but I wasn’t sure how the department was going to react or respond to it. Because I never wanted them to think that like I was not focused on the program. And I listened to one of your previous episodes where you were talking about that, where it’s frowned upon sometimes.

22:07 Natilie: And so, I came into the department and told the Director of Grad Studies for the department, like, Hey, I do speaking. And so there would be some Fridays where they would have, what’s called colloquium where like, it’s like a big research conversation. And I’m like, yo, I’ve got to go Denver to speak. I can’t make it to colloquium. And luckily the Director of Grad Studies was like, you know, I’m going to count you speaking as professional development since you already have your hand in your career. We’re not going to count it against you, that you aren’t at colloquium, right? Like you already have your hand in your career. We’re going to support that. And I was so happy that she was so generous because she could have been like, no, you need to be here. I can say for like some of the rest of the department more so like peers, I didn’t really let them know too much.

22:56 Natilie: I would just say like, oh, I have a leadership conference to go to. I didn’t mention to my peers that I was the keynote for the leadership conference. But once I saw that it was a comfortable space, I was able to let them know. And then once they saw that like I wrote a book and so they were like, oh, wait a minute, you really do this. Like you wrote a book like you are on a book tour, wait a minute. Like, you know, so once I felt comfortable, I didn’t mind sharing. But I had to be sure that it was a safe space because I was not going to allow anybody to sabotage this career that I had worked so hard for.

23:28 Emily: Yeah. I think this makes a ton of sense because when you have a business, a side business or whatever you might call it, that’s so like out there and public-facing, and especially it’s in higher ed <laugh> as well. Like, it’s something that’s probably impossible to conceal. Like sometimes with my podcast guests, they don’t want to let people know about it, and they can not let people know about it. They can do their side hustle on the weekends, in the evenings. It can be just a private thing. But I think it was really smart of you since you were already doing it when you came into graduate school just to be completely upfront and say, this is what’s happening. And I’m really glad too, that, you know, they worked with you on that. It also makes sense to me that what you’re doing is professional development enhancing your career. So, I’m really glad they gave you that, you know, a little bit of leeway on the attendance.

24:11 Natilie: It was difficult. Because it got to the point where like, I was so protective of my speaking career. Like I was not accepting my colleagues on social media because I didn’t want them to see that, like, you know, I’m speaking. Or if after class, as a student, I go hop on a flight to the airport and I post on social media that I’m on a flight and they’re like, oh, well, what is she doing there? Is she going to make it back in time to teach? And I would, but I never wanted people to question. I never wanted people even to have the opportunity to try and, you know, speak against or speak negatively or try to talk about what they didn’t have clarity on, you know, so. But now it’s all good.

Advice for Working on a Business in Grad School

24:47 Emily: Yeah. You proved yourself in your program and it came out that you were doing all of that with the business on the side, and being successful in both. So yeah, I’m really glad that you had that positive reaction. Is there anything else that you want to share with us about your business or your role as a graduate student before we wrap up?

25:03 Natilie: Absolutely. As a graduate student, if you come in with a business, you don’t necessarily have to lay it down by the wayside in order to focus on your doctoral studies. You can do both and you can do both well. I think it’s about coming into a department and figuring out how does this operate? And then also allowing yourself to have as much time as possible to work on your business and still be a person because doctoral programs are hard for no reason. But it’s possible to maintain both of those things. And if you are like, well, I’m a doctoral student and I want to start a business but I don’t know. Try and think about what skillset do you have that you can actually monetize, and that you can do it in a way in which you’ll have time to dedicate to it. Because you don’t want to start a business and you can’t serve your customers well. So I could not show up to my speaking engagements half-tired because I had a paper due last night that was 15, 20 pages, you know? So being able to still serve your customers in whatever capacity that you serve and try and figure out how you can monetize your skillset and do a ton of research, right? If you are interested in speaking, you can look up other speakers that may be doctoral students and figure out how did they do it. So, you never have to recreate the wheel.

How to Reach Natilie

26:22 Emily: How can the listeners find you if they want to learn more about your career or anything else?

26:27 Natilie: Absolutely. I would love for your listeners to follow me on social media and let me know that they found me from the podcast. And so, I can be found on Instagram @NatWillSpeak N A T W I L L S P E A K. And so that is @NatWillSpeak on Instagram, on Twitter, on Facebook. My website, www.natwillspeak.com. And I’m available if you know, they ever want just drop in and say, hi. And my book Innerview, I N N ER, Lessons in Leadership is available on my website, NatWillSpeak.com, and it’s also available on Amazon. And I really kind of lay out even more in the book of how I was able to start the speaking career and elevate it.

27:13 Emily: Yeah. Fascinating. I love that URL slash handle. Your name lent itself so well, that’s amazing.

27:18 Natilie: Thank you. <Laugh>.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

27:20 Emily: So, the question that I ask all of my interviewees before we wrap up is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve already touched on in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

27:33 Natilie: Know what you have coming in financially, know what you have going out paying bills. And you can do that for as in a budget. Budget, your money, so, you know, again, what you have due every month, what you have coming in, and that will really allow you to take more ownership of your finances to say, Hey, I realized that I have $800 leftover every month. I’m doing pretty good. I can start saving or investing. Or it may make you realize I need $800 more a month. I don’t have enough. Do I need to pick up another position? Do I need to try and apply for a fellowship or a scholarship or outside grants or things of that nature? So, I think that me budgeting, learning to budget my money, I budget down to the dollar. Not to the cents, but to the dollar, and me doing that, I was able to take ownership of my finances and know at all times where I stood. And checking bank accounts daily, making sure that, you know, what’s what, did this bill get taken out? So just knowing where I always stood financially gave me the knowledge to make the best-informed decisions financially as a doctoral student.

28:38 Emily: Well, Natilie, it’s been such a pleasure to meet you and thank you so much for sharing your experience and everything with the listeners! Thanks for coming on!

28:45 Natilie: Thank you so much! Thank you!

Outtro

28:52 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? I have collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Semester-Proof Your Academic Side Business with Digital Products

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Toyin Alli, a lecturer at the University of Georgia and founder of The Academic Society. Through the Academic Society, Toyin teaches graduate students about productivity and time management. After experimenting with many different offerings, both Toyin and Emily have added digital products to their businesses to generate passive, scalable income. Toyin explains what a digital product is and how it can help a graduate student or academic “semester-proof” their business so that income flows in no matter how busy you are with other things. She also shares how to find your “zone of alignment” within your business, which might or might not relate to your academic work.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

S11E8 Semester-Proof Your Academic Side Business with Digital Products

Teaser

00:00 Toyin: And so, for me, one way that I feel fulfilled in my life and I found purpose is through my business. And so it doesn’t have to be through your business, but I do encourage everyone to think about like, what’s something outside of academia that brings me joy and brings me fulfillment?

Introduction

00:19 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 11, Episode 8, and today my guest is Dr. Toyin Alli, a lecturer at the University of Georgia and founder of The Academic Society. Through The Academic Society, Toyin teaches graduate students about productivity and time management. After experimenting with many different offerings, both Toyin and I have added digital products to our businesses to generate passive, scalable income. Toyin explains what a digital product is and how it can help a graduate student or academic “semester-proof” their business so that income flows in no matter how busy you are with other things. She also shares how to find your “zone of alignment” within your business, which might or might not relate to your academic work. I warn you that Toyin and I jump right into biz-talk at the start of this interview, so it might be helpful to go back and listen to her earlier interview, which was Season 3 Episode 12.

01:28 Emily: I need to warm you up a little bit right now for this conversation. Ask yourself: Do you want to make money on the side of your current position? Are you limited in how much time you can spend on your side hustle and does it have to be flexible? Are you subject to a draconian no-side-jobs clause in your contract? Toyin and I discuss in detail one particular type of business that could be a great fit for a graduate student or PhD: A digital products business. We discuss the pros in-depth and also some of the cons, plus how you can get started even if right now you don’t know what you want to offer or to whom. Don’t be put off by our use of the term business, either. You have a business even if it’s just you and one product or one service. Toyin has an excellent short, free video course on digital product businesses for academics, which you can join at theacademicsociety.com/weekend. I took this course prior to our interview and highly recommend it if you’re interested in this type of business.

02:32 Emily: I would be remiss if I didn’t tell you where you can find my main digital products, which I mention a few times in the interview. You can find my annual tax return workshop, How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), at PFforPhDs.com/taxworkshop/. You can find my estimated tax workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients, at PFforPhDs.com/QETax/. I also share why I’ve transitioned all my tax education work from live speaking engagements to these workshops, which comprise pre-recorded videos, worksheets, and live Q&A calls. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Toyin Alli.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:21 Emily: I am overjoyed to have back on the podcast today Dr. Toyin Alli. She was first on the podcast in season three, episode 12, where we talked about side hustling and finding a good side hustle fit while you’re a graduate student. And today, several years later, we’re having an evolution of that conversation. So, Toyin is, as she was before, a lecturer, she has a PhD, and she’s a business owner. And her business has, you know, moved on in the past three years and she’s learned a ton and she’s going to share a lot of what she’s learned today with us. And I’m so excited about that. So Toyin, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. And will you please introduce yourself further for the listener?

03:59 Toyin: Yes. Thank you so much, Emily. I’m excited to be back to share with your listeners. Especially, it’ll be interesting to hear the previous episode and think about like the evolution that has occurred. But yes, I’m Dr. Toyin Alli. I got my PhD in math from the University of Alabama back in 2016. And immediately after getting my PhD, I landed, which is basically my dream job, as a lecturer at the University of Georgia. And I’ve been there for almost six years now. And last year I was actually promoted to senior lecturer. So that is very exciting. And I won a teaching award, which is amazing. I actually won two teaching awards. And I also run The Academic Society, which is my business where I help academics and grad students with time management and productivity.

04:52 Emily: Yeah. And Toyin and I have actually collaborated in the past because she’s incorporated some of my financial teaching into her programs through The Academic Society, which we’re going to learn a lot more about in a few minutes. But Toyin, like right up front, why don’t you say if people want to learn more about the subject that we’re talking about today, which is digital products and a semester-proof business, where can they go to find out more from you?

05:14 Toyin: Yes. So I’ve been talking a lot more about business on my personal Instagram account, which is @drtoyinalli, but you can also check out some videos on my YouTube channel called The Academic Society with Toyin Alli. I have a special playlist called Academic Dream Life where I talk about my life and business.

What is a Digital Product?

05:34 Emily: Oh, wow. That’s so inspirational! I need to check that out. Okay. So, I just mentioned the term digital product. This may be unfamiliar to people, although probably they’ve used a digital product, but they may not know that’s what it’s called. So what is a digital product?

05:48 Toyin: I love digital products. So a digital product is something that you can sell online without having to be involved in really any steps of the process. The whole like transaction happens with systems online. And so it’s how people do passive income online. It’s how people say they made money while they slept. And that actually happened to me. But a digital product can be, I like to classify it into three categories. You can think of it as like an ebook or any type of PDF that someone can download, a digital course where you’re teaching something and people can get access to that, or a template where people can get a link to a template that you’ve created and fill it out for themselves. So this is something that someone can go to your website, sign up for it, purchase it, and consume it without you having any interaction with them.

06:43 Emily: So, the analogy is, okay, let’s say some things that contrast to this. So a digital product contrasted to a physical product: there’s some manufacturing process there. There’s some delivery process there. In addition to, of course, the design and the creation, which you would do for a digital product as well as for a physical product. And then there’s also services. So, you can sell a service, which is sort of selling your time or your expertise, your talent for money. And that’s a great way to have a side hustle, but it’s very different from having a digital product. Like you just said, the delivery, once you’ve made the thing, the delivery is completely hands off. And so, digital products are a way that you can scale your income much beyond what you probably would be able to do with something like a service-based business. And so why do you think that digital products, that kind of business, is a good fit for an academic?

Digital Products and Academics

07:34 Toyin: Yes. So I believe that digital products are perfect for academics, which let’s back up and say, I have a business consultancy. So if you’re a consultant, a coach, or you do speaking, I think those are great side hustles. However, when the semester starts to get hectic and really busy, it can be really hard to deliver or have time to do those types of services. And so, a digital product is really nice because you can have a digital product and have your business be running during the busiest and most draining times in your semester. So for example, all of 2021 was very difficult for me. I just felt very drained from teaching my classes, and I wasn’t able to work in my business as much as I usually did. I wasn’t able to create as much content. I wasn’t able to do like the selling that I normally would. However, I actually made more in my business than I ever had before, because I had digital products. And so people were purchasing my products without me having to do any additional work than I had already done. So, that was really nice. So, I think it’s perfect for academics, for academics who have a business already, but they kind of fall off on working in their business during the semester when it gets really busy.

08:53 Emily: Yeah. So this makes a lot of sense to me if your, I guess, various roles in whatever you are as an academic, whether it’s a grad student, postdoc, faculty member, lecturer like you are, if they sort of ebb and flow with the semester, which so many people’s do with their teaching schedule, you know, summer could look quite different from during the academic year. Even breaks, like your winter break could be, I don’t know, three weeks or a month-long. And you know, maybe you have some grading to do, but then your schedule’s very different than what it is at other times. And so, yeah, I love the idea of being able to sort of consistently deliver the product and make the sales no matter how crazy your life is or is not at that time.

09:29 Emily: And I also really want to add, like, not only is this kind of business I think a good fit for an academic, but I’ll speak, I’m not an academic anymore, but I am a parent. And so listeners, this is actually the third time that Toyin and I have tried to record this interview. And the first two times I had to cancel because of complicated stuff going on with my children. For example, my child’s preschool closed during the Omicron wave. So, things like that can come up for lots of people, not just academics, like parents and so forth. And so having a business like mine is to some extent now that can deliver these products without you having to be on a call or in a room is very, very helpful when your life goes a little bit off the rails.

10:11 Toyin: Exactly. And that’s exactly what happened to me last year in 2021. Probably fall of 2021 was probably the worst semester I’ve ever had. And it was just so draining. And I had all of these intentions on like going live, creating videos, working on my business. And I just wasn’t up to it.

A Semester-Proof Business

10:32 Emily: So Toyin, when we were discussing this episode, you had this term that you used that I love so much that reflects what you were just talking about. Can you share what that is?

10:40 Toyin: Yeah. So I call it a semester-proof business, which means no matter how busy your semester gets, your business is semester-proof. Therefore, you can still make sales. Your business can still run without you working on it every single day. And I think the key to having a semester-proof business is to have digital products as part of your business strategy.

11:05 Emily: You know, this has really been kind of where my business has gone over the, I’ve been doing this for like seven years now. And when I first started the business, I really envisioned myself as a public speaker. That was like the thing that I did. And that was because I loved doing it. I loved speaking publicly, I loved being able to interact with people and like that format, answer questions. That’s awesome. But, I realized over the years that like, it wasn’t scalable in the way that I needed it to be. And you were just mentioning how hard fall 2021 was for you. For me, spring 2021 was also hard, but in a different way, which is that I was really, really busy. I was delivering a lot of webinars. This was during tax season, lots and lots of tax webinars for lots of different universities.

11:49 Emily: And it wasn’t like I was doing that every hour of the day, but it took a lot of energy, and I was really feeling like, kind of getting a bit like burned out on that situation. And so, what I decided to do was transition my tax material, in particular, from doing live speaking engagements for universities to offering a digital product to them, which I had already been offering to individuals, but I just decided to sell it to universities as well. And it’s been going fantastic. We’re in tax season for tax year 2021 now. And I love this delivery model. It’s so much easier on me. And, here’s the other thing. I think it’s higher quality for the recipient too. Like in comparison with the live stuff that I was doing otherwise, in a live speaking engagement, I’m not going to say things perfectly. I might flub up something versus my digital product is a hundred percent scripted. I’ve checked it over multiple times. I know it’s correct. I can expand in all the right places. So I think it’s a better product overall. This is for my business, right? That comparison. But just to illustrate to the listener, like how beneficial it can be. Maybe if you have different, you know, suites of different things that you offer, to have this as one of the things that you do that can help you scale and deliver what you want to teach or what you want to share.

12:57 Toyin: I think this is a great point, because I was talking about how beneficial a digital product could be for the academic, the business owner. But it’s also more accessible to the consumer. The consumer can consume whenever they want, they can consume it as many times as they want, and it just fits into their schedule. They can take the time to digest the material. They can repeat the material. And I think it’s just a great experience. So, it’s nice to have other offers that may be live or in-person, but to have digital products for your audience as well can only help them.

Evolution of The Academic Society

13:34 Emily: So, you and I have both experimented a lot. We’ve been doing business stuff in this space for academics for several years, we’ve tried out different things, we’ve evolved what we offer. How would you describe what you offer? Like, has something clicked for you along the way about what you should be offering, who you should be serving? How did you get to that point, and what was like, not quite there yet? Like what was not quite clicking yet?

14:00 Toyin: Yeah. So in my business, The Academic Society, I help grad students mainly with time management and productivity. And it took me a while to get to like the core digital products that I sell in that business. It took me a while to figure out what actually sell. So there was a lot of trial and error. So, the very first digital product I created was called The Grad School Toolkit. And this was, I would categorize it as a template where I made a Trello template to help graduate students organize their lives, keep track of like their degree, all of the things. And I was like, oh my goodness, I wish I had this when I was in grad school. So I made it for grad students. And I tried to sell it and it just would not sell, but I realized I didn’t really have the tools.

14:49 Toyin: I didn’t really know how to sell. This is the first thing I ever created. And so I kind of chickened out, which I wish I didn’t, but I chickened out and I decided to give it away for free. And what happened, no one even downloaded it, even though it was free. I had to learn how to talk about what I was offering. And in order to talk about what I was offering in a way that people would actually want it and purchase it, I had to get to know my audience even more. So, something that was really helpful for me was my YouTube channel and always asking people to share in the comments and ask their questions in the comments. And so, based on the comments of my YouTube channel and the posts in my Facebook group, I was able to learn more and more about what grad students really needed and what they actually wanted.

15:38 Toyin: And that led me to my two main offers. So, there was a collection of students who were excited about starting grad school and they didn’t know what to expect. So, I created a program just for them called Grad School Prep, which is for incoming graduate students. And then I also had this group of grad students who were like struggling to get their work done and struggling with time management. And they just did not know how to motivate themselves to get their work done. So, I created a program called Focus for them. And so those are my two main products. And I would say it took me about two to three years to actually like get those, like actually in the format that they are in today. So it takes a while it takes a bit of improvement, but I think the best advice I can give is just start, put something out there, see how it’s received, and then go from there.

Commercial

16:32 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Taxes are weirdly, unexpectedly difficult for funded grad students and fellowship recipients at any level of PhD training. Your university might send you strange tax forms or no tax forms at all. They might not withhold income tax from your paychecks, even though you owe it. It’s a mess. I’ve created a ton of free resources to assist you with understanding and preparing your 2021 tax return, which are available at PFforPhDs.com/tax/. I hope you will check them out to ease much of the stress of tax season. If you want to go deeper with the material or have a question for me, please join one of my tax workshops, which are linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. I offer one workshop on preparing your annual tax return for graduate students and one workshop on calculating your quarterly estimated tax for fellowship and training grant recipients. I’m sure I don’t have to remind you that tax day is fast approaching on April 18th, 2022. That’s the deadline by which you must file your annual tax return and also make your quarter one estimated tax payment, if applicable. The 2022 quarter one live Q&A call for my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients, is today, Monday, April 11th in the evening. It would be my pleasure to help you save time and potentially money this tax season. So, don’t hesitate to reach out. Now back to our interview.

Knowing Your Audience

18:18 Emily: For someone just starting out thinking, I would love to have a side income, even though I’m an academic and I have a busy semester, and I think this digital product thing could work really well for me. You’ve mentioned a couple times like getting to know your audience and discovering what they really want and need. And I’ve done this too, but how does someone who has no audience figure out how they can serve other people and make money doing it?

18:45 Toyin: Yes. So even if you don’t have an audience of like people to buy from you, you know, people, your friends, your family. And so when I was starting, I like made a little list of things like what do people come and ask me about? Like, what do people get advice from me about? What do I feel like I do better than others? What comes easy for me? And that was a way to get started. A way to figure out how I could help someone else. And then once I figured out who I wanted to help, I actually started asking people who fits this description? What are your questions about this topic? And so I started creating content about the topic. So for me, it was grad students with time management. I started creating content and that started to build my audience. And so, that gave me more people to ask marketing questions too.

19:37 Emily: I think this aspect of the audience is a really important element of selling digital products. And it’s something that, so I said earlier, like you could also sell services. Selling services is a really fast way to make money. Selling a digital product is maybe more scalable, but it’s more of a long-term play because you have to find the audience, you have to figure out what they want. You have to develop the product, you have to tinker around with different things like we’ve been talking about. And so I know like something that you do now is that you create content regularly for your YouTube channel, probably other places as well. And that, you know, brings people into your orbit, they’re interested in what you’re saying, and ultimately, maybe they decide they want to buy this digital product from you because they know it’s going to help them even further than what you’ve been doing for free. Is that the general model that this should follow? I guess someone could get really lucky and put something out there and suddenly people find it and love it, but that’s not typically how things go, right?

20:29 Toyin: Yes. I’m so glad you mentioned that. I would say that having a digital products business and making your business semester-proof, it’s a slow burn. It’s kind of like a snowball that kind of just like builds and builds, but it takes a while. I also agree that having a service like a consultancy or coaching or speaking, that is a much quicker way to make money, but the nice thing about a digital products business is, once you set it up, it’s good to go. So would you rather wait until you have a huge audience for people to buy to set it up, or would you rather set it up now and just start attracting people little by little? And the more you talk about what you do, the more people will learn about it, and that’s, what’s going to build that snowball effect.

Sales on Autopilot

21:16 Toyin: And there are of course things you can do to like kickstart your digital product. So, it doesn’t have to be completely passive at the very beginning. So for example, I created a workshop recently called Sales on Autopilot to help other academics. And I could have just launched it as a digital product that people could watch on their own, but I knew it was new. And so, I needed to build a little bit of hype around it. So I decided to offer it live for the first round, and that is a way to get people excited. And so if you are unsure or if you do want to have a digital product and you don’t really want to wait around to see if it catches on, try to do some type of live event around it and it can get people excited about it.

22:05 Emily: I am literally right now experimenting with this in my business because I’m super interested in reaching out more and more to prospective graduate students. Like you said, that you had a cohort of people who are like preparing for graduate school and trying to figure out all the stuff about how they’re going to succeed in graduate school. I have that same group that I’m interested in from their financial perspective. And so there are different ways that I’ve been doing this over the years, but right now I’m experimenting with delivering some content live for the first time that will ultimately be refined and live as an evergreen digital product. So like, this is something that for some aspect of your business, you may be able to do it once and then, you know, set it on autopilot. But every time you sort of have a new idea, you have to go through the same sort of iterative process on this. So, that’s really, really exciting.

22:51 Toyin: It’s also really fun to do like a live event because when you do something live, you get to hear people’s feedback real-time. And it can tell you how you may want to tweak what you’re offering, or maybe how to reposition it in a way that’s more exciting for your prospective client or customer.

23:10 Emily: I just wanted to share another aspect of my journey on this point that you were just making of, you know, make the product and also grow your audience. And it’s there for them whenever they want it. And as your audience grows more and more, hopefully more people will be finding it and buying it and so forth for me. Like I started teaching the tax material that I do in my business way back from the beginning, because it was one of those multiple personal finance subjects that people really needed to know about. So it had sort of, it was on the level of the other things. And then a while after that I created the digital product version, like my prerecorded tax workshop, but I was only selling it to individuals and I wasn’t selling it to universities yet. I was doing the live stuff for universities. And then like I was saying earlier, when I got so busy that I couldn’t really support the live aspect of it anymore, that product was there. And I could already tell my university clients I’ve been selling this for three years to individuals. It gets great reviews. People love it. And that was a great selling point for me. So like, my audience grew and shifted and so forth, but I was really glad that I had started experimenting with that product like years and years earlier.

24:11 Toyin: Yes. I love that. And I love like how you could scale that one offer. You’re talking about the same thing, but you’re offering it in different ways and in different capacities. That’s actually how I came up with my Grad School Prep course. I wrote a book called #GRADBOSS: A Grad School Survival Guide. And I wanted to expand on that book and go a little deeper. So, that book is available as a digital product or you can buy the physical copy, but if you want something more in-depth, something more interactive, there’s my course. I turned it into a bigger, better thing into a course. And then as you mentioned, we collaborated, and I invited Emily in on my course to help the students in there with the finance. And then that same topic, I actually scaled it up even more. I have a program for if anyone’s heard of the McNair Scholars Program, it’s for first-generation underrepresented undergraduate students. I was actually a McNair scholar, and the goal is to teach them about grad school and have them earn a terminal degree. And I was like, wow, my Grad School Prep stuff would actually be really helpful for McNair scholars. And so I scaled that product again, but tweaked it so that it was personalized for McNair scholars. So, I just feel like there are endless possibilities with digital products.

Find Your Zone of Alignment

25:33 Emily: I’m so glad you brought up the example of working with the McNair programs, which you and I are now doing, and it’s fantastic and it’s so much fun and I feel like we’re making a huge impact and it’s amazing. I think that you now call that your like zone of alignment, right? That you have the material that you’re teaching, you have the audience that you’re teaching it to. Can you expand on what that means?

25:51 Toyin: Yes. I finally discovered my zone of alignment, which is where I can position myself where I can just be myself and just really succeed. So, a lot of people talk about their zone of excellence, which is just things that you’re really, really good at. And then there’s your zone of genius where it’s like, not just the things that you’re good at that may be like draining on you, but the things that you’re good at that feels good to you. But if you take it one step further and add in your background and who you are, you can achieve your zone of alignment. So for me, I am really good at time management, and I am really good at helping graduate students with time management and productivity. That’s what I’ve built my business on. But my McNair program, it is so special to me because I was a McNair scholar.

26:44 Toyin: I achieved the goal of the McNair program of getting my PhD, and I help other graduate students. And now I’m able to help other McNair students actually achieve their goal. And so when I talk to McNair directors about my program, it’s like a no-brainer for them like, oh yeah, we teach our students about grad school. But also, they’re going to be able to learn from someone who was in the exact position as they were. And I just feel like all of the stars aligned when I created that program, and it just brings me so much joy and I feel that I’m working out of my zone of alignment. And I believe everyone has a zone of alignment. So like, if you think back to where you came from and what you’re good at, is there a way that you could help people who were just like you? And if you can find a way to do that, it tends to become almost effortless.

27:38 Emily: I can think of actually a couple recent podcast interviews that I’ve published. One with Dr. Lubos Brieda, and one with Dr. Nelson Zounlome, who were both graduate students who, I think, you know, according to your framework, like discovered their zone of alignment while in graduate school, and then launched businesses out of that zone of alignment. In Lubos’ case, he has a consulting company now. And in Nelson’s case, he’s still in academia like you are, but he has this side business that relates to his research and also his passion. And it just, it all just like feeds into one another in this like beautiful way. And I think that’s like something that our academic audience, you know, your zone of alignment might be something related to the subject matter that you’re studying in graduate school or that you did study during your PhD. You and I took kind of a step side to that of just like, how do you succeed as like a graduate student or PhD in these different areas, but it could literally be related to your research or the population that you are interested in or something like that. Like, there’s probably something about your experience as a graduate student or PhD that will help you figure out your zone of alignment

28:46 Toyin: One hundred percent, one hundred percent. And this is something I actually work on with my clients. So, I have a business consultancy where I help academic entrepreneurs figure out like how do they manage both being an academic and an entrepreneur. And academic work can be pretty draining. And so, you don’t want your business to also be draining if you already have a job that’s draining. So it’s really important to build a business, you know, from your zone of genius, but also really find that alignment so that everything just like falls into place and it becomes way more easy and more joyful and more fulfilling to work in your business when you’re working out of alignment or in alignment, rather.

Seeking Joy and Fulfillment

29:31 Emily: Toyin, I’ve just loved this conversation. Is there anything else that you want to share with us regarding digital products businesses, or zones of alignment, or anything else that we’ve touched on?

29:42 Toyin: As academics, we spend a lot of time becoming who we are and like building to our career. It takes a lot of work, and when we actually finish and make it through the program, we should feel good about that. And we should start to enjoy our lives. And so something that I really hate seeing is an academic who’s gone through the whole process of getting their degree and they get stuck in that grind of academia and their life just becomes academics, and they don’t really find a fulfilling purpose. And so for me, one way that I feel fulfilled in my life and I found purpose is through my business. And so, it doesn’t have to be through your business, but I do encourage everyone to think about like what’s something outside of academia that brings me joy and brings me fulfillment? And so, yeah, that’s just what I wanted to mention.

30:36 Emily: That’s beautiful. Toyin, where can people learn more about this subject of digital products and so forth?

30:44 Toyin: Yes. So I’ve created a free video series, which is a digital product, but it’s called Plan Your Semester-Proof Business in a Weekend. And so, it’s a multi-part video series where I walk you through the process of creating your own semester-proof business, as well as share my complete business journeys, failures, and successes. And so if you’re interested in that, you can check it out at theacademicsociety.com/weekend.

31:14 Emily: And I went through this digital product a couple of weeks ago, and I found it really, really illuminating. Even though I’ve already been in this space for like several years, I still learned several things from this series. Something I really, really liked was that you go through, as you briefly mentioned earlier, just a bunch of different examples of different digital products, but in a little bit more detail in these videos, and it can really spark ideas and just show people also like a digital product doesn’t have to be some like massive thing. Like my tax workshop, for example, which has taken years to create and hours and hours and blah, blah, blah. It does not have to be that big, it can be a small thing. That’s okay. Start somewhere and get your sort of systems up and running. I love the systems focus that you have in that series, because this is a weak part of my business. So that’s where I learned something. So anyway, it’s a free course, y’all. If anybody’s interested in creating digital products, just go and take it. It’s going to be great.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

32:02 Emily: Okay. So Toyin, last question that I ask of all my interviewees is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it can be something that we have talked about already in the interview, or it can be something completely new.

32:16 Toyin: Yes. So my best piece of advice would probably be to not underestimate the power of having savings. I am someone who always struggled with having savings. I think just since graduate school when I was applying for jobs or going to conferences, just the way that things are set up, it’s like you pay your own money and then you have to be reimbursed. And so I was often like using a credit card and then being reimbursed, but also have to use the money for other things. And so I got into a pretty deep debt. And so I was never able to build my savings. But thank goodness I have my business and I was able to get out of debt using earnings from my business. But I am really focused now on building a savings account. I think that’s really important. Like this past summer, my air conditioner broke, so I had to buy a new air conditioner. Luckily, I actually had savings this time, and I was able to do that. But yeah, I think that was something I underestimated before, but I never will again.

33:19 Emily: That’s great. That’s great. I think when you’re in a cycle of like living to paycheck to paycheck or like depending on credit cards, it’s kind of about like getting by, and you think you are. You’re doing okay, using the tools available to you. Yes, that’s true. But once you are not in that position anymore and you have the savings, like you did not even know the peace of mind that was available to you by that savings existing until you got to that point. So, definitely cosign as best you can, as soon as you can get some savings in place. And the thing that’s great, we didn’t even talk about this before, about a digital product business is that it’s so low overhead. So, you can start one without sinking a bunch of money into whatever systems and inventory and blah, blah, blah, blah. You can do it very easily. It’s going to cost you your time, but probably not much more than that. And yeah, so you can make money without having a whole lot on the expense side.

34:12 Toyin: Yes. I love that you said this. So I do this workshop called Sales on Autopilot, and you can literally set up a digital products business for $9 a month. That is it. Like it is probably the cheapest business that you could ever create.

34:29 Emily: Yeah, no kidding. Well Toyin, we’ve gotten so many insights from this interview. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast again, it’s been wonderful to talk with you!

34:37 Toyin: Thank you so much for having me, this was great!

Outtro

34:45 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? I have collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 3 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and increasing cash flow. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Grad Student’s Side Hustle Is Trading Options

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In this episode, Emily interviews Min Sub Lee, a 4th year PhD candidate in Molecular and Medical Pharmacology at UCLA. Over the past year, Min Sub has developed a side hustle in options trading, which is selling or buying the option or right to sell or buy stock. Min Sub teaches us what covered calls, put options, and put-credit spread options are. He shares how he learned this technique and why he thinks it’s a good fit for a graduate student’s budget and schedule. Min Sub keeps this strategy low-risk by limiting it to only a small fraction of his investment portfolio and making small, consistent bets. This content is not advice for financial, legal, or tax purposes, and if you are interested in options trading, please do extensive research before you begin!

Links Mentioned in this Episode

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Teaser

00:00 Min Sub: You know, as long as you’re consistent, as long as you are committed to your goals, I really think that in the long picture, right, the money will compound on its own. And you know, I am a very strong believer that anyone can, you know, achieve great wealth, no matter what kind of income you’re making. I personally think that as long as you have the right mindset, as long as you have the right strategy for it, then anyone can do this. That includes grad students.

Introduction

00:31 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 11, Episode 4, and today my guest is Min Sub Lee, a 4th year PhD candidate in Molecular and Medical Pharmacology at UCLA. Over the past year, Min Sub has developed a side hustle in options trading, which is selling or buying the option or right to sell or buy stock. Min Sub teaches us what covered calls, put options, and put-credit spread options are. He shares how he learned this technique and why he thinks it’s a good fit for a graduate student’s budget and schedule. Min Sub keeps this strategy low-risk by limiting it to only a small fraction of his investment portfolio and making small, consistent bets. This content is not advice for financial, legal, or tax purposes, and if you are interested in options trading, please do extensive research before you begin! I have a new little project that I’d love for you to participate in! I’m crowdsourcing information on what tax forms are being issued for various fellowship and training grant funding sources. I’ve published an article with the data I’ve collected so far at PFforPhDs.com/taxform/. So if your stipend or salary was from a fellowship or training grant issued from the NIH, NSF, Ford Foundation, DoD, DoE, Hertz Foundation, Paul and Daisy Soros Fellowship Program, Life Sciences Research Foundation, American Association of University Women, etc., or an internal fellowship source, please fill out the survey linked from PFforPhDs.com/taxform/ to help out other people with the same type of funding who are confused about the tax form they received or lack of tax form. Thank you! Without further ado, here’s my interview with Min Sub Lee.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:32 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Min Sub Lee. He is a current graduate student at UCLA, and we are going to discuss options trading, which is a form of investing that I know nothing about. So it’s very exciting for me to get to learn alongside probably many of you listeners. So Min Sub, would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

02:51 Min Sub: Yeah. Hi, Emily. Very nice to meet you. It’s very good to be here. My name is Min Sub. I’m currently a fourth year PhD candidate. I’m currently studying molecular and medical pharmacology at the University of California, Los Angeles. And I am very passionate about financial education, financial literacy, and hopefully I can provide some good value to my audience who may not be familiar with how options work and you know, all that good stuff.

What are Trading Options?

03:17 Emily: Yeah, sounds great. I am definitely in that audience. So, as longtime listeners know, I am a dyed in the wool passive investor. I set up my investments a decade ago and have not touched them since, because I’m very happy with how things are going. So, actively investing is not something that I do and it’s not something that I teach, but of course I want to learn about it, and I’m happy to share the information with the listeners as well. So, Min Sub, let’s start with what are options, and how does this differ from what we might otherwise think of as like stock trading?

03:50 Min Sub: Yeah, absolutely. So basically most of us are probably familiar with the concept of buying shares of a company. So essentially when we purchase, let’s say 100 shares of, you know, your favorite company, you know, let’s say McDonald’s or something, or, you know, Walmart or Target. Well, that basically means that you are essentially part owner of a company’s equity. Now, options are something that I honestly never considered doing until this year. Because you know, you might hear in the media saying that, well, you know, people have like based lots of their money on options, right? People basically, you know, put their entire life savings into options. They basically lost it all. So options really have a very negative sort of like vibe on overall market trading. But I actually wanted to, you know, change that sort of like sentiment today because options training can actually be very profitable and very, very safe if you do it correctly.

04:46 Min Sub: Right. So, essentially what options are is that options are basically a right or some kind of a contract to buy or sell typically 100 shares of a company. So here’s an example that I usually tell my friends whenever they ask me, you know, about options. So, let’s say that you are a home buyer, and I am a home seller, right? So, I currently own a house that is currently selling for about $500,000 right now. And you are interested in buying my house. However, you currently do not have the full $500,000 in cash, but you are willing to essentially have the right to buy my house. So, let’s say that you pay me $100,000 of quote unquote premium, and what the premium states is that you basically ask me if you can buy a $500,000 house for $200,000 with a $100,000 premium.

05:49 Min Sub: And essentially how that works is, you know, typically when we have those contracts, we set some kind of a contract date and some kind of a strike price. So essentially let’s say in three years, even if my house let’s say appreciates to 1 million dollars, because you have a contract with me stating that you have the right to buy my house for $200,000, essentially you could buy my house at a total of $300,000 if you add up your initial premium plus the amount that you want to pay for. So that is, in a nutshell, how options work. And, you know, obviously things can go wrong both ways because you know, my house can easily collapse to, you know, $0, right? So in that case, you know, then your premium might be deemed worthless. But at the same time, you know, like if my house appreciates to, you know, 10 million, right, then you can technically, you know, buy my house for the premium price that we’ve sort of contracted for.

06:44 Min Sub: Now, the truth is, for the most part, people who buy these call option contracts, many of these premiums expire worthless. And what that means is, typically what happens is, you know, like either the price did not appreciate in value as they wanted, so basically their contracts become worthless, right? Or, you know, the other concept is that sometimes over time there’s a concept called data decay, which means even if you hold an options contract for, let’s say three years, if you do not exercise that contract for some time, the data decay essentially can actually wear off part of your option contract on a daily basis. So, essentially people’s contract just becomes worthless, one because the actual security price doesn’t appreciate, or because of the fact that data decay has essentially just devalued the entire contract on its own, and your premium is just deemed worthless at that point. So, there are different ways how people can exercise options. But typically, you know, I say about 90% of the time, you know, people who own call options typically are on a losing streak, but you know, in the end they’re not losing a lot of money because they’re only paying a small premium to essentially have the contract, if that makes sense.

07:55 Emily: I see. Yeah. So, it does actually, and I’m not sure how familiar the listeners are with this, but I don’t know the stats on this exactly, but it turns out that like over the many, many decades, you know, 90 plus percent of the value that’s been created in the U.S. economy is coming from like the tail end of stocks that have done like incredibly well. Whereas the vast majority of companies either like break even, or lose money like over the long-term. And so it sounds similar to that. So like a lot of the bets that you’re going to make if you enter into this are going to not turn out in your favor, but because you’re making small bets, you only have to win big a certain percentage of the time to overall come out ahead.

08:35 Min Sub: Exactly. Yes. Which is why, you know, when people typically buy options, they only, you know, play with a very small percentage of their portfolio because it is money that people can live without,k right? But, you know, if the country goes well, then people can make lots of money in that sense. Right.

Safer Ways to Approach Options Trading

08:50 Emily: Okay. So I think we have the basic idea of what options are. So then how do you approach options trading in such a way that you think you’re going to come out ahead mostly?

09:03 Min Sub: Right. So, I mean, there are different ways to win in options trading. So how about this, let me start with actually some of the safer ways to start options? Because I think, you know, most people still think of options as a fundamentally evil thing, and they just sort of, you know, fear losing a lot of money. And that is, you know, not wrong. You know, if you play options really incorrectly, if you really think that you could sort of win big with options, right? You’re not thinking in the right mindset, right? Because in the end, options should be only about 20% max of your total portfolio. For me, you know, I only play with maybe 10% of my total you know, security asset portfolio, mainly because I know that if I lose that 10%, you know, I’m not going to lose my sleep on that, right?

09:46 Emily: If I heard you correctly, what you’re saying is that about 90% of all the money you have available to be invested is not invested under this strategy. You’re doing maybe a long-term diversified index situation, probably?

10:00 Min Sub: Correct.

10:01 Emily: Okay. Good to know. Okay. So we’re talking about this fraction of your portfolio, and the strategy that you’re using in that. Please continue.

Strategy #1: Covered Call Option

10:07 Min Sub: Correct. Yes. Yeah. So there are actually three sort of strategies that I adopted on options. And I really think that these strategies are very, very useful for anyone to get started. Mainly because, first of all, they’re risk-free, right? Technically, there are still some risks to options. So, I mean, don’t think that this is actually something that’s guaranteed to make money, because if you do it incorrectly, you will lose part of something. So, the first strategy I’m going to talk about is actually a strategy called a covered call option. So, how this works is, the one requirement that you have to have for this strategy is that you must own 100 shares of some security, some stock class. And basically, here is what’s happening. So let’s say that you have these 100 shares of a company or of some stock, and this stock has not been moving for the past year, or this stock basically has been trending sideways.

11:02 Min Sub: You know, maybe it’s been swinging up and down, but maybe like plus or minus two to 5%, you know, on a flat basis, right? And you know, like you’re looking at your other, you know, stocks like Tesla, you know, and like other big stocks and, you know, you’re jealous because you kind of want to, you know, like start liquidating some of this and start to, you know, maybe consider putting your money into asset classes that actually do appreciate more value. So instead of doing that, right, which I don’t recommend, you should never just jump and just liquidate your cash just to jump on a hot stock just because it’s moving up like 20%, you know, on a weekly basis. But essentially how cover calls work is you can basically kind of say that I think that the current stock that I’m owning is not going to go above 10% of value in the next certain time. Right?

11:55 Min Sub: So let’s say that, you know, by next month, by December 3rd or something, right? You know, my hundred shares, I do not expect these shares to go above a certain price. So what we can do is we can actually sell a covered call and receive a premium. So, basically I am kind of betting that because I sort of know on a high trends basis that I don’t think that these shares will go above a certain strike price, I am willing to sell a covered call option on my current shares. And with that, you can actually earn roughly between about two to 3% of your current assets. So let’s say that you own about 100 shares worth of, you know, your favorite stock. Pinterest, let’s say, right? And, you know, you currently have about, let’s say $5,000 worth of Pinterest.

12:46 Min Sub: And, you know, you can sell a covered call option and receive about, you know, two to 3% of your current holdings. And if your bet is correct, right? If you’re correct in a sense that Pinterest did not go above 10% in value, then you’re basically going to keep that premium, right? You’re basically going to keep your current shares, and you’re also going to keep the premium, and we can actually do this on a weekly basis because we can actually sell a weekly cover call options on your securities. So essentially, you know, for stocks that you believe that you don’t really expect them to move on a really volatile basis, then this is a very good strategy to actually sort of earn passive income. It’s kind of like earning dividends, you know, on your stocks, right? To an extent. Now, the downside, you know, of course, is Pinterest might all of a sudden skyrocket, right?

13:38 Min Sub: You know, there might be really good news, you know, something, let’s say there’s an acquisition purpose. And, you know, like Pinterest might literally go up 30%. Well, in that case, you’re kind of screwed because you promised to sell 100 shares of your security at a specific strike price. And if the price of Pinterest has gone up way over your strike price, then there’s a high likely chance that you’ll be called out, which means, you know, you will still get your premium, but you’re forced to sell your 100 shares of a company at a target price. So typically selling a cover call is a very good viable option for stocks that typically don’t move too much. You know, stocks like Apple, like Microsoft, you know, these stocks that tend to have a very low volatility and, you know, stocks that typically have very low, you know, like ups and downs are very good ways to actually utilize cover call options as a strategy. I’ve been using this option for quite a while, and I’ve made pretty decent income. And so far, I have never got called out yet. So hopefully I can, you know, stay that way for next, you know, whatever years I continue to do options.

14:50 Emily: With that example, is the price that you agree to sell that stock for what you’re calling the strike price? So like, in your example, it was that like 10% above wherever the price was when you made this bet?

15:02 Min Sub: Correct.

15:02 Emily: So I guess what I’m thinking is, for you as the person who is, you know, currently owning these hundred shares, basically you get money if your stock doesn’t move that much, or if it goes up quite a lot, you still get more than you had in the first place, because you’re selling at that slightly higher price. It’s just not as high as it could have gone had you never put that, you said it’s a covered call, right?

15:26 Min Sub: Exactly. Perfect. Exactly.

15:28 Emily: Yeah, so I see the attraction here.

15:31 Min Sub: Yeah. So like I said, right, it’s very good for stocks that don’t really have a high volatility because you know, if your stock goes, let’s say down, right? That, you know, it still sucks because your stock went down, right? But you’re not going to be called out. But you know, if your stock let’s say suddenly goes up to like 20%, then you know, it’s an opportunity cost that you sort of gave up because of a premium in that sense. So that is one down side, but overall, like, you know, if you feel like there is a security that you just want to hold for a long time, but want a little bit more passive income, then this is one really good strategy to do so.

Feasibility for Grad Students

16:04 Emily: I guess a further follow up question about this, this a little bit relates to like, how feasible is it for a graduate student to do this. To own a hundred shares of a stock, the stock has to be fairly low in price, right? For that to be manageable for a grad student kind of income. So like for instance, when you have done this strategy, what is the stock price or some examples of stock prices that you’ve done this for?

16:26 Min Sub: Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I’ve been trading for some time, about two and a half years now. And honestly, like when I first started this strategy, I didn’t start with covered call options. I actually started with another option trading that I slowly, you know, started to accumulate a little bit of cash on the side. And I’ll actually get to that strategy, which is actually much more feasible and practical for grad students. But right now I currently only, if I were to be transparent with my portfolio, I currently own 100 shares of Lemonade right now. So, Lemonade is actually an insurance company that I really believe that there’s a good future growth to this, but Lemonade also has been trending sideways for a long time. Right now, Lemonade is trending for about $62 if I’m looking at it correctly, and it’s been like this for about the past three months. So, like I simply just used the strategy to, you know, essentially like gain a little bit of passive income on a weekly basis to at least, you know, get something out of it.

17:23 Emily: Hmm. Okay. So the way that you’re using this strategy is you have what you want to be a long-term holding, but you don’t expect it to take off anytime soon or do much movements anytime soon. So you’re making, as you said, some income from it in the meantime.

17:38 Min Sub: Right. Right. Exactly.

Strategy #2: Selling a Cash Secured Put Option

17:39 Emily: Very interesting. Okay. Well, I think you said there were three sort of approaches that you wanted to cover for options trading. So what’s the second one.

17:45 Min Sub: Yeah. So the second one is actually a little bit similar to the covered call option. So the second one is called selling a cash secured put option. So how this works is basically you are obligated to, this time instead of sell, you’re obligated to actually buy one hundred shares of a company that you like. Okay. So, I currently do not have many sold puts going on right now. But let’s say that you have a company, okay? I don’t know, let’s say that you really want to buy Costco or something, right? But you know, you currently don’t like the price right now because Costco is trending for about, you know, $350. I don’t know, I haven’t checked, but let’s say it is. But you know, you really want to own Costco at a lower price. So what you could do is you could actually sell a put option.

18:42 Min Sub: And how that works is for a put option, you actually need a collateral this time. So in the case of a cover call, your collateral was your 100 shares of a security, but for a put option, your collateral is actually cash. That’s why it’s actually called a cash secured put option. And because an option contract typically, you know, moves 100 shares at a time, you know, and maybe Costco is not a good example in this case, but basically we need to have, you know, so if you’re willing to buy Costco at $320, then you need to have a cash security collateral of about $32,000 in your account, which might seem impractical for grad students. But that’s kind of like how put options work. And basically what happens is you also get a premium on that. So you can basically put your collateral up, and then you also receive a premium based on that collateral.

19:34 Min Sub: So if Costco let’s say never goes down to $320, let’s say, right? Let’s say Costco just moons and let’s say it just stays at $350. Well, then the good news is that your premium is still yours. You get to keep that premium, and you actually get to keep your collateral, right? Because you know, basically in a put option, you’re obligated to buy the shares. But if your strike price has not reached below your expectation, then you know, after a week, right? Essentially your put options will expire worthless and you get to keep your money and you get to keep your premium, potentially. Now, I really like puts because here’s, and, you know, put options, I think is really never a losing strategy. Let’s say that Costco actually does go down to $320. Let’s say. Well, remember the reason why you’ve done it in the first place is because you are actually willing to pay that much money for Costco, right?

20:28 Min Sub: So, in a sense, it’s not a losing game because that was your original bet, right? You have an entry strategy and you wanted to basically buy a hundred shares. So even if Costco, you know, falls after earnings or something, you know, let’s say it falls down to $319. Well then yeah, you’ll be called out, right? You will lose your collateral. And actually you’re forced to basically buy 100 shares. But the good thing about that is, let’s say that, you know, you just don’t like Costco anymore all of a sudden. You can always, you know, sell those hundred shares back in the market, right? And essentially, you know, if that happens, then technically you get your collateral back, and you also get to keep the premium that you originally settled for. So I really think that put options is a very attractive strategy.

Risks of Selling Puts

21:10 Min Sub: The only downside course is that, you know, you need to have a lot of collateral depending on what kind of security you’re trying to buy. But other than that, I really think that selling puts is very lucrative. Especially if you have some cash that you really have no idea how to spend it, but you know, you’re going to at least keep your cash as collateral, then you can sort of receive some passive income premiums, in that sense. I sold puts quite often, you know, during this spring, when the market was very red and you know, I made pretty good income from that. So I’m very happy about that choice. Right now the market is doing really well. So put options are not very attractive right now, but you know, the next time we enter a barren market, I’m hoping to, you know, like consider selling more puts, if I have some more cash on the sideline.

21:54 Emily: So one follow-up question, again, I’ll use your example, and thank you for giving one. So in your example, you agree to buy Costco at $320, but you mentioned, let’s say it fell to $319. What if it falls to $200? So are you still agreeing to buy at $320?

22:10 Min Sub: Exactly. Yes. So that is a risk of selling puts, right? So essentially you know, again, which is why you should not do a put option contract on stock with a very high volatility. You know, Costco has a fairly low volatility. It’s deemed a very safe stock. You know, its P multiple is very low. So, you know, I personally don’t think that Costco will drop that much money unless there is some kind of a really bad earnings report, a really bad guidance or something. But, you know, usually with either your cover calls or selling puts, you should not do these strategies on really volatile stocks because, like I said, we know for fact that if it goes in both ways, we are kind of screwed. So that’s a very good follow up point. And thank you for mentioning that.

22:57 Emily: Okay, thank you.

Commercial

23:00 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Taxes are weirdly, unexpectedly difficult for funded grad students and fellowship recipients at any level of PhD training. Your university might send you strange tax forms or no tax forms at all. They might not withhold income tax from your paychecks, even though you owe it. It’s a mess. I’ve created a ton of free resources to assist you with understanding and preparing your 2021 tax return, which are available at PFforPhDs.com/tax/. I hope you will check them out to ease much of the stress of tax season. If you want to go deeper with the material or have a question for me, please join one of my tax workshops, which are linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. I offer one workshop on preparing your annual tax return for graduate students and one workshop on calculating your quarterly estimated tax for fellowship and training grant recipients. It would be my pleasure to help you save you time and potentially money this tax season, so don’t hesitate to reach out. Now back to our interview.

Strategy #3: Put Credit Spread Option

24:15 Emily: And what’s a third strategy?

24:18 Min Sub: Great. Yes. So this is a strategy that I really, really like, because I think this is a great strategy for all grad because, unlike covered calls or, you know, cash secured puts, you don’t actually need a whole lot of security or, you know, a whole lot of, you know, collateral. Basically this is called a put credit spread option strategy, and how this works is essentially, you have a put option that is going both ways at the same time. So essentially, you are selling a put, but you’re also simultaneously buying a put at the same time, right? So here’s an example that I thought of yesterday, right? So, let’s say that you are selling a put option for Apple, right? So Apple is, you know, let’s say trending around $147 as of now. And remember what that means is if you’re only selling a cash secured put, you are basically putting $14,700 as a collateral because you’re willing to buy apple at that strike price, right?

25:23 Min Sub: But what if you don’t have that much money? What if you actually don’t have that cash? Well, then you could actually, you know, take that advantage and actually do the opposite. You could actually buy a put option for the same company, but at a lower strike price. So essentially let’s say you sold a put for $147, but you’re actually now going to buy a put option for the same security, but at a lower price, let’s say $146, right? And then remember, when you’re selling a put, you are receiving a premium, and when you’re buying a put, you’re actually paying a premium for that security. So essentially you’re actually receiving the difference on the premium between your sold put and your bought put. So if your sold put was, let’s say $37 of credit, but your bought put is $23 in credit.

26:14 Min Sub: That means your net credit on this put credit spread strategy would be $14, right? Because you’re basically receiving a difference between your sold put and your bought put, right? And you know, of course, you still need to have some collateral, and how the collateral works is basically, it’s the difference between your strike price of your sold put and the strike price of your bought put. So if you sold your put for $147 and you bought your put for $146, the difference is $1, right? But remember, because options operate for 100 shares, your total collateral that you’ll be paying for is $100, right? But you’re actually receiving a premium of $14. So if you put it that way, so if your collateral was $100 and your net premium was $14, that’s about a 14% profit from your collateral.

27:12 Min Sub: And, you know, if you’re correct that Apple basically did not go below your put price, then you know, you can actually keep your premium and your collateral. And the beautiful thing about this put spread strategy is that, unlike the cover puts, unlike the cover calls, you don’t need to have 100 shares, you don’t need to have, you know, basically a lot of cash as a collateral. So I really think this is a really good strategy, and I’ve actually been doing this for quite a while sometime in January of this year. And you know, I’ve been doing this on a weekly basis. And also the one good thing about this strategy is that there are actually ETFs that you could do this. So ETFs, like SPY and QQQ, those two are the two, you know great ETFs for this strategy.

28:00 Min Sub: Mainly because these ETFs actually have three different strike dates per week, right? So basically Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, they have a different strike expiration date. So essentially if you do this correctly, you can actually do this three times a week. And if you, you know, let’s say you sold about, you know, three contracts per, you know, like every two days. And if you make about, let’s say to be conservative, let’s say about $8 per contract. Well, that’s still about $24, you know, on that expiration date. But if you multiply that by three days, that’s still about, you know, $74 of just profit that you’re making from just the strategy. And, you know, like, I think I kind of can figure out your next question. Is this actually a very, you know, like good time commitment for grad students? Because, you know, it might sound like this is very long, very time lucrative and, you know, very, very time sensitive.

28:58 Min Sub: And the truth is, when you first learn how to do this, it does require a little bit of, you know, time to sort of like learn this. But honestly, like once you get more comfortable with these strategies, all you really have to do is simply just wake up in the morning and then, you know, just open your brokerage account, and like on your phone, or it could be on your computer, and just trade these options for, you know, maybe like the first, like 15 minutes of the market open. And that’s it. As long as your security is sold, then you can just, you know, put down your computer, go on a hike, you know, get your breakfast, go to lab. And, you know, like not worry about it until the next expiration date, which is, you know, typically in two days. So I really think that this is a very good tangible strategy that anyone can actually utilize, whether it’s grad students or whether you’re just trying to get started with options.

Recommended Resources for Executing Options Trades

29:47 Emily: If someone is listening and is really interested in pursuing this strategy, but they have no idea where to start, where would you recommend they go to learn more about how to execute these options trades, but also, you know, the research into like, you know, which particular stocks should you be doing which particular, you know, option trade for? So like, what are some really great sources that you’ve learned from in the past few months and years?

30:09 Min Sub: Right. So here’s the thing. So when I first learned about stocks in general or options in general, I actually started with paper money. Because I personally don’t like losing money, and you know, like learning something new like this, even if it’s like a hundred bucks, I mean, even if, you know, that might be a small percent of my portfolio, I don’t like losing money. I mean, so like I would rather be somewhat of an intermediate expert on this field before I actually use real currency. So, you know, there are actually, you know, like online, you know, sources, you know that you could use. I think that the one that I used was actually called the Stockwatch, I think, but basically there are a lot of paper trading platforms where you can sort of like play with fake money and see if this strategy works for you.

30:56 Min Sub: And once you are comfortable with trading fake money, and once you have profited, maybe even become a millionaire with the paper money, I think by then, you know, maybe to me, you know, it took about maybe a good three weeks to be more comfortable with this. So it was a very good learning period for me. And, you know, I’m very glad that I took that time to actually learn about this because now, you know, again, like I said, the time investment, you know, initially might be a little painful, it’s just sort of a big climb, but once you are comfortable with the level of, you know, risk-free training, then honestly this becomes a very routine task for me. So, I started using, you know, a paper training currency, but, you know, there are a lot of YouTube videos out there nowadays, right?

31:43 Min Sub: If you just, you know, look up, you know, how to sell covered call options, how to sell put options, right? How to do a put credit spread. There are many, many sources that people actually use. And there are actually, you know, plenty of day traders online who actually record their, you know, online, you know, videos on live. And they actually show how to execute different trades and they actually do tutorials of this. So there are actually endless amounts of resources that anyone can get started with this strategy. So if anyone is really interested in actually starting, you know, to learn a little bit about options, you know, how to actually trade options in a risk-free way, then I really think that those two ways are a very good start. And you really must make sure that you have enough collateral cash that, again, you are comfortable losing potentially. Because, you know, like I said, I’m only doing this for about 15% of my portfolio, right? Because you know, like I will not lose my sleep if, I mean, it would still stuck, but I will not lose my sleep, you know, if I potentially, you know, lose everything the next day.

Fairly Low Time Commitment

32:46 Emily: Yeah. So I want you to make some comments now about how compatible you think this strategy is with like a grad student lifestyle. And we’re talking both income, like available money to be invested, and of course, again, we’re only talking about a percentage of that total portfolio. And also the time. So like you mentioned earlier, I think there was a little bit of time invested to learn the strategy and you were, you know, playing around with a simulation. And then you actually start doing it. But once you are familiar and comfortable, it sounds like it’s a fairly low time commitment on like the daily or weekly basis, right? To actually execute the trades.

33:25 Min Sub: Yeah. It really is. I mean, you know, honestly, like the actual, like trading itself takes, you know, maybe less than three seconds. You know, like as long as you set your own strike price that you’re comfortable with, and as long as you are, you know, like consistent with what you want to sell it for or buy it for, then it really just, you know, like usually, you know, like I do multiple options on Monday because, you know, technically Monday is when the new market opens, unless it’s a holiday, and then the option contracts expire usually on Fridays. So usually selling a weekly put or cover call on the same week, I think is a very good, consistent income. Now sometimes, you know, like I do a little bit of longer calls. I make longer contracts if I feel like, you know, I can get more premium because you know, the longer your contracts are, the more premium you will get.

34:13 Min Sub: So sometimes if I feel like a stock, you know, might not potentially move for maybe another like two weeks or so, right? Then, you know, I could consider doing that for a longer time, which means the next week I’ll just take a week off or something because I don’t actually have to worry about you know, like losing maybe a premium in that sense. Yeah. So like, honestly, like once you sort of reach that phase of, you know, I learned how to do options, I kind of know what I’m doing, right? Once you sort of like, I think pass that barrier, I think from there, it becomes a very, very passive thing. And that’s the reason why I chose to participate in this podcast because, you know, when we talk about, you know, like passive income, you know, and side hustles. Most side hustles that we are familiar with, you know, usually requires some kind of a time commitment.

35:01 Min Sub: You know, we spend about, you know, an hour or two tutoring, we spend an hour or two, you know, maybe, being a tour guide or something. Or, you know, like you could be some kind of a, you know, participant in some, you know, case study, right? But I think with options, you know, it’s very great because it doesn’t require you to actually exchange your active time for money. Because once you sort of like, you know, have a system, right? It’s kind of like, you know, you are generating your own, you know, machine that gives you your own passive income. Now, you know, don’t get me wrong. Like, again, there are risks to options trading. So, you know, don’t think that everyone’s an expert, because I definitely lost some money during this. You know, but for me, like, you know, because I was very consistent over time and I was very keen to what I believe, and I was very committed to my purchases and other stuff. I was able to make a slowly but substantial income that I still have today. And I’m still looking forward to, you know, keep on doing this, you know, hopefully until I graduate. And by then, who knows what’s going to happen.

Choosing the “Right” Stocks

36:00 Emily: So kind of one more follow-up question on that. Like, I understand that, you kind of said once you set up this like system or like machine, you know, consistently. Yes, there are risks, but you have generated a fairly consistent passive income from this. But I guess I’m more wondering about how you’re figuring out, like you’ve mentioned several individual stocks as examples so far in our conversation, like there’s whatever thousands of stocks to choose from. Like how do you actually figure out which ones you’re going to be making these bets on? Like what resources do you use?

36:30 Min Sub: Yeah, that’s a very good question. So when you talk about like stocks that are deemed considered safe, so there are actually many measurements you can actually learn about this. So, basically when I first got really into investing, I actually read the book called The Intelligent Investor. I actually have it here. Let me pull it out right now. So it’s called The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham. If you see this right here. And basically this is a really good book because it actually really shows you a lot about how to, you know, pick the stocks that are right for you. Essentially, you know, there are two like great measurements of a stock that you consider, right? Because remember, when we do a covered call, you want to choose a stock that has a fairly low volatility that does not tend to move up and down in price too much, right?

37:15 Min Sub: So, you know, a good example would be Google, right? Google or Apple, right? Those two, you know, are very big, you know, big blue chip stocks that have already performed very, very well. Right? So, these are called, you know, large market cap stocks because these companies have already grown, and you know, the amount of growth that they are projecting forward is a lot less compared to, let’s say new SPE companies that have just, you know, IPO’d and you know, these companies have a lot more, you know, potential to grow, right? So I mean, you know, if you’re looking for, let’s say this growth stock investing, then you should not do options on them, personally, because you know, these, like I said, these growth stocks can either go both ways and, you know, because of the high volatility. You might receive more premium, but you have a much higher risk of losing all your money.

37:59 Min Sub: So I would personally stay away from any of those companies that have a very small market cap, right. And, you know, market cap simply means it’s the total asset of a company. So you can basically multiply the share price times the number of shares, that’s how you get market cap. The other measurement is actually a measurement called beta. So I don’t know if you’re familiar with beta, but beta is basically a comparison to the S&P 500 index. And for those who are not familiar with the S&P 500, the S&P 500 basically is a way to think about the U.S. economy as a whole, right? So if your S&P 500 sort of grows on this path, then we can kind of expect that the U.S. economy also follows that trajectory, essentially. So if your beta for a stock is one, that means that stock essentially aligns parallel to the S&P 500.

38:48 Min Sub: So an example of a stock that would have beta one is actually Google, right? Basically, if you actually look at the past chart of Google versus the S&P right, we can actually see that they actually largely overlap together. You know, mainly because, you know, those two companies, they sort of flow in the same trajectory, right? So if I were to, you know, recommend a stock to do options on, I would choose a stock with a very low beta, or with a beta that’s as close to one as possible, mainly because we know those stocks are a lot less volatile compared to other stocks, right? You know, please don’t do, you know, options on, you know, like stuff like Tesla right? Because we know Tesla goes like up and down, in like so many ways.

39:30 Min Sub: So, it’s really, really risky to you know, do those kind of options, you know, unless you have a lot of money to lose, right? And the third measurement that I also look at is something called the PE ratio. So that’s called the price to earnings ratio. And typically I mean, some people say that PE ratio is a measurement of companies’, you know, future performances. But usually I like to basically use a metric where the PE ratio for a company typically should be around 20 or lower. And basically with that measurement, that usually means that the company has already grown, you know, has a lot of built-in growth. And there is a lot less growth potential possible in the future. So, it’s kind of like Google.

40:13 Min Sub: So Google also has a fairly low PE ratio because, you know, they also have grown so much these past, you know, couple decades that you know, we don’t expect Google to, you know, become like a master large cap stock in the future. So, you know, like you could actually search up these stocks on Yahoo finance, and actually look at their charts. And, you know, these charts will actually display all the parameters that I talked about. Beta, PE ratio, market cap, all that stuff. And, you know, if you are interested in learning more about this stuff, there are plenty of resources out there online. The one source that I really like is a source called Investopedia, actually. So Investopedia is basically like an encyclopedia with all the investment terms.

40:54 Min Sub: So, you know, like if you want to know more about, you know, what is a large cap company versus a low cap company? What is a PE ratio? What is a beta? You know, what are call options? You know, you will be able to find individual articles on all of these. So, again, it takes a little bit of time and practice to be familiar with these, but I personally think that as long as you are comfortable and as long as you are interested in making money, then I think these are very good strategies that we could potentially incorporate in our daily lifestyle. Especially if you like investing.

Portfolio Growth in 2021

41:26 Emily: Sounds really attractive. So for your personal portfolio, do you mind sharing how long you’ve been doing this for, how much money you’ve made or how much your portfolio’s grown, and how much time you think you’ve put into the research and the execution?

41:44 Min Sub: So this year alone. So if I were to, you know, just add up all of my total put credit spreads that I made from January 2nd to now. I have about $7,322. And that is because I was able to do this on a weekly basis. You know, I was selling SPY put credit spreads on three times a day, and eventually, you know, those money has been accumulating and compounding. And quite frankly, that’s the reason why I was actually able to accumulate a little bit more capital to start, you know, selling puts. Remember to sell put options, we need cash collateral. So because now I had a little bit of cash, now I’m able to, you know, use these put option strategies to actually sell puts on companies that I’m willing to buy. So basically, like, you know, I think you can see what I’m getting at here, you know, as long as you’re consistent, as long as you are committed to your goals, I really think that in the long picture, right, the money will compound on its own. And, you know, I am a very strong believer that anyone can achieve great wealth, no matter what kind of income that you’re making. So, I personally think that as long as you have the right mindset, as long as you have the right strategy for it, then anyone can do this. That includes grad students.

43:01 Emily: I love the way you put that. I don’t have anything to add to that, except to just say that $7,000 in, let’s see we’re in November now. So almost a year of what is essentially like a side hustle. You know, not that active, you’re not spending a lot, a lot of time on it. It’s a very decent rate of return, especially for a graduate student. So yeah, this is very exciting.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

43:21 Emily: It’s been really a pleasure for me to learn more about this. So thank you so much for volunteering to be on the podcast. I want to conclude with the question that I ask of all my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it can be something related to what we’ve talked about today or something completely else.

43:40 Min Sub: Yeah. So this is actually not financial advice, but this is actually, I think, a very good personal habit that everybody should employ, and that is to wake up early. So the reason why I started waking up early was actually frankly, because the stock market in California opens at 6:30. And, you know, like, you know, if I’m trying to get the best bet out of this, right? You know, usually I like to do most of my trades in the morning. But honestly, you know, quite frankly, like after I started to have very prosperous morning habits, I realized that I feel like I have a lot more time in my day, right? Because, you know, when we wake up at let’s say 9:00 AM or 10:00 AM, right? You know, like we tend to feel I think more lazy because the sun’s already out and, you know, we already hear people outside. So, I really feel like fostering this kind of like early morning routine is a very good habit, I think for really anyone, right? Because not only do you feel like you have more time, but I think that, you know, in the morning when people are, you know, mostly asleep typically usually like I get less distracted and I tend to get more work done in the morning, personally.

44:50 Emily: I have to say that I concur, and it’s even a surprise to me. Well, it was so good to meet you Min Sub! Thank you so much for coming on and sharing about this topic. New to me, new to probably many of the listeners, but really exciting to learn about. So thank you! It was great to have you on!

45:05 Min Sub: My pleasure! Thank you so much for having me!

Outtro

45:12 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? I have collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 3 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and increasing cash flow. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.