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This Start-Up Centers Graduate Students and Pays Them Handsomely

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In this episode, Emily interviews Jin Chow, a graduate student at Stanford, and Stephen Weber, a graduate student at the University of Georgia. Jin is the co-founder of Polygence, a start-up that facilitates graduate students and PhDs remotely mentoring high school students one-on-one through well-defined research projects. Stephen has mentored five students and speaks to the advantages of Polygence as a flexible and lucrative side hustle. We discuss whether and how to tell your PhD advisor about a side hustle, and who is or is not a good fit for becoming a mentor with Polygence. Jin also briefly shares the story of how she co-founded Polygence as a graduate student on an F-1 visa. If you’re looking for a side hustle that’s convenient to balance with your graduate work, check out Polygence: they are hiring mentors now!

Links Mentioned in the Episode

grad student side hustle

Teaser

00:00 Stephen: You know, it’s kind of funny to say, but I’m getting paid to learn more about things that I would already be interested in learning about.

Introduction

00:12 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 3, and today my guests are Jin Chow, a graduate student at Stanford, and Stephen Weber, a graduate student at the University of Georgia. Jin is the co-founder of Polygence, a start-up that facilitates graduate students and PhDs remotely mentoring high school students one-on-one through well-defined research projects. Stephen has mentored five students and speaks to the advantages of Polygence as a flexible and lucrative side hustle. We discuss whether and how to tell your PhD advisor about a side hustle, and who is or is not a good fit for becoming a mentor for Polygence. Jin also briefly shares the story of how she co-founded Polygence as a graduate student on an F-1 visa. If you’re looking for a side hustle that’s convenient to balance with your graduate work and want to help cultivate the next generation of researchers, check out Polygence: they are hiring mentors now!

01:19 Emily: If you have a pretty well-established side hustle, whether as a contractor with a company like Polygence or your own sole proprietorship, you may be wondering how best to manage that stream of income. This is especially true if you incur any expenses with respect to your side hustle. I have a course titled Best Financial Practices for Your Self-Employment Side Hustle that speaks to two chief areas of interest for people with this type of side hustle. 1: How to financially manage variable business income and expenses so that your personal finances aren’t negatively affected. This half of the course teaches some basic business and personal finance principles to keep everything orderly. 2: What type of self-employment retirement account option to use. If you are a super-saver who maxes out your IRA yearly and doesn’t have access to a workplace-based retirement account, you can actually use your self-employment income to open and fund an additional tax-advantaged retirement account. My course explains which of the several options is the best fit for a solopreneur side hustler. If you’d like to learn more about and purchase this course, please go to PFforPhDs.com/sesh/. That’s P F f o r P h D s dot com slash s for self e for employment s for side h for hustle. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Jin Chow and Stephen Weber.

Will You Please Introduce Yourselves Further?

02:54 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Jin Chow and Stephen Weber. They are representing Polygence. So I first heard about Polygence a few weeks back when I was at a conference, I had the pleasure of speaking with another employee and learned what they do, which is providing mentorship opportunities to high school students and hooking them up with graduate students and PhDs. And the reason that we’re bringing this episode to you is of course, to tell you a little bit about the company, but also to let you know that this is a potential side hustle opportunity. We’re going to get into more of that momentarily. So Jin and Stephen, will you please take a moment to introduce yourselves a little bit further to the audience?

03:31 Jin: Awesome. Hi everyone. My name is Jin, really grateful to Emily for having us on today. A little background about myself, I’m originally from Hong Kong, came to the U.S. for college, studied Comparative Literature at Princeton for my undergrad, and I’m currently a PhD Candidate at Stanford, also in Comparative Literature. And in terms of research background, I’ve just been working mostly on French and Arabic literature. And then right now I’m putting my PhD on hold to work full-Time on Polygence. I’m one of the founders.

04:00 Emily: Yeah, super interesting. We’ll get back to that at the end of the interview. Stephen, go ahead and introduce yourself.

04:05 Stephen: Well, thanks for having me. My name’s Stephen. I’m actually a third-year PhD student at the University of Georgia. My research is focused on Parkinson’s Disease and the association of the immune system and potentially perpetuating that. And then before that I was actually a research professional at Stanford University. I worked with the stem cell Institute, teaching and training anywhere from undergraduates, to postdocs, to professors on application of a specific methodology. And yeah, that’s a little bit about me.

04:40 Emily: And what’s your role with Polygence now?

04:42 Stephen: Yeah, so now at Polygence I’m a mentor and I have been for about a year and a half and recently have moved into being a mentor affairs coordinator. And that’s where I’m at now.

How to Get Involved with Polygence

04:53 Emily: Yeah. So we’re going to hear more about what is this mentor role. But to back up a little bit, Jin, as founder, co-founder let us know more about Polygence, what it’s about, and how can graduate students and PhDs get involved with the company?

05:08 Jin: Totally. So Emily, I think you gave a really great overview of what it is. So we’re an online project-based learning platform where we connect PhD candidates, masters candidates, postdocs, and also people who already have their advanced degrees with really motivated and intellectually curious high schoolers to work on personalized research projects. And our mission on the mentor side really is to democratize access to the knowledge that’s in so many PhD candidates heads and also to give PhD candidates, graduate students in general, a chance to earn some side money because we know how not well universities pay PhD students and graduate students in general. And so on the mentor side, that really is our mission. And we want to make sure that students high schoolers from all around the world who are passionate about different kinds of academic disciplines can get a chance to connect with experts like yourselves, our listeners today. And to do something beyond the school curriculum and to learn something new, create something fun and cool. And so for, in terms of how mentors can get involved, we have an open rolling application season for any mentor to express interest on our website. We’ll put in the link in the show notes later. And also once you sign up, we have rolling interviews, you’ll meet with one of our team members and then we’ll onboard you.

06:29 Emily: It’s so unusual. I really don’t think I’ve spoken to anyone else who has centered the graduate student experience in the broader mission of a startup or a company. And of course it’s very like laudable that we want to help mentor and educate these up-and-coming researchers who are currently in high school and so forth. That’s all wonderful. But to hear that, okay, this was founded by a graduate student. You can, I guess maybe you want to introduce your co-founder in a moment as well, but founded by a graduate student and really again, centers that graduate student experience and the financial concerns of graduate students. So unusual. And I’m really excited to talk to you about that.

07:06 Jin: Yeah. Maybe I’ll just take three seconds to say a little bit more about my co-founder too. So I think the reason why we’re so centered on the graduate experience is because when we founded it, I was in the middle of it. I was in my second year of the PhD program and my co-founder, Janos, had just finished his PhD in physics. And so we both just knew so well how difficult it is financially as a graduate student. And also we both just love teaching so much, but didn’t get enough of that in our own respective programs. And so those two things coming together just made the graduate experience like front and center for us.

Stephen’s Role as a Mentor

07:36 Emily: Fantastic. Fantastic. So Stephen, not speaking as the founder, but speaking as someone who has been a mentor with Polygence and now has moved into an even bigger role. What has been your experience as a mentor?

07:50 Stephen: Yeah, I mean, I think that that’s one of the biggest questions. So I actually am a part of doing the interviews for potentially onboarding mentors. And so, you know, that’s a question that I get asked a lot is so why are you still here? You know, because I think for a lot of graduate students, their experience is TA ships, right? Wherein they are paid poorly for their time. And they’re expected to do a lot. And they often have that as an interference to their day to day. You know, especially someone who’s coming from the hard sciences where there’s a lot of really long days spent in the lab, for instance, it can be hard to juggle the responsibilities of that plus being a TA. And so despite having a really huge love for teaching, it can be really difficult to make that work.

08:37 Stephen: And it also is not quite as flexible as the schedule at Polygence, right? So at Polygence, you’re committing to hour-long sessions with students, roughly once a week, and you can make those times whenever is good for you. So I think that that’s part of why I’m still with it, obviously, but it also adds value to the fact that I get to still enjoy it each time. You know, it’s not just a, “I have to be here doing this.” This is something that I want to do. I feel like my time is compensated well. And I feel like I get to talk about things that I really want to talk about. Whereas as a graduate student, you’re often TAing for courses that may not be within your wheelhouse or may not be of specific interest. They might just be departmental courses that you’re just kind of asked to TA for. So I think that that’s another huge point of why I’m still here is that I feel like I get to not only talk about what I like, but also get to explore it in ways that are new and novel for incoming students.

Intangible Benefits of Mentorship

09:32 Emily: We’re going to talk more about sort of the financial side of this in just a moment, but I wanted to hear some more about like maybe the intangible benefits, the intangible experience, the warm fuzzies that you get from working with these students. Like you’ve done multiple cycles of this, I understand. So, you know, what is your enjoyment of the process?

09:52 Stephen: Yeah, so I’ve, what is it, five students now at this point and I’ve had three of them publish their work in high school-tier journals. And so, you know, for me, what I think is kind of like a part of it that you can’t really capture with, like the financial element is that you’re getting to be a part of the developmental process for people that have a passion similar to yours. And I mean, maybe I’m like the outlier, but when I was in high school, I can definitely say that I didn’t have this kind of opportunity. And so it was a really novel experience to be a part of the early foundation-laying of students who really want to pursue this. And not only do they get to learn more about a subject, but they also get to learn more about the ins and outs of the career itself.

10:37 Stephen: And I think for me that would have been hugely valuable to know here are skills that I could start working on now in high school to get ready for, you know, a long-term academic career. And I think that those are parts of the intangible that just feel like, you know, it’s paying it forward in a way of like, okay, so I struggled through and learned these things. Let me try to provide some insight for you that you can now take forward and maybe try to share with people around you as you go through the academic process.

Why this Side Hustle is a Great Fit for Grad Students

11:04 Emily: Wonderful. I also am reflecting on kind of my experience in high school. And I was fortunate that I did have research opportunities because I attended a particular school that offered that, but they weren’t like one-on-one, it was group. And I think that given my personality, I think a one-on-one setting would have been fantastic for me at that age. We talked about how the commitment when you’re mentoring a student through Polygence is approximately one hour about once a week, and that it’s flexible to be, you know, conforming to the mentor’s schedule. And I love this because one of the key key elements I think of a successful side hustle in graduate school is being able to schedule something that’s not going to interfere with, as you said, Stephen, your long days in lab. Like that really does need to be your priority. And so being able to do something around that is absolutely perfect. Is there any other reason that you can think of that this particular side hustle is a great fit for graduate students?

11:56 Stephen: There’s a whole host of reasons really, I guess, but you know, there’s some of the core ones are in addition to the flexibility of it all, it’s also an opportunity to maybe explore parts of research that your boss doesn’t really find interesting. You know, because for me, my area of research is very niche. And so as a result, I don’t get to explore some of the outside things. It’s not that I don’t have an interest, but now I’m getting, you know, it’s kind of funny to say, but I’m getting paid to learn more about things that I would already be interested in learning about. And, you know, those were opportunities really because, you know, some of the conversations that I’ve had with my students have actually turned around and been things that I was able to employ in my own research. And so, you know, those are things that just through the conversation, through the ever-evolving amount of information you’re getting from these students. And from that process of learning more about your own subject, I think it kind of pays itself back to you in addition to, you know, being compensated for that time.

12:53 Jin: I’ve heard from some mentors too, that like, especially for those who are thinking about building a career in teaching, whether in high school teaching or later in academia, obviously getting more teaching experience and connecting with young people is something that is really beneficial for their own sort of pedagogical development as a teacher and an educator. And obviously getting paid to get that experience. Our hourly rate is usually around $75 and above. And so that’s usually sort of both the financial and also the paying it forward and as well as the teaching experience piece is what I hear most from mentors.

13:29 Emily: Yeah. I was just thinking that like, you know, one of the things that you’re supposed to be doing in graduate school is being exposed to new ideas by networking and talking with new people and going to conferences and going to seminars and so forth. And this is just another way to have that happen, to have to be exposed to another like creative mind who’s not as encultured maybe yet to the way that we think in academia that can help you spark your own ideas. As you said, Stephen, to go back into your research to feed back into that. And so I just think this is again, another way of doing that kind of networking and exploration, but getting paid for it at the same time which is fantastic.

Financial Benefits of Polygence Side Hustle

14:06 Emily: So Jin, you just mentioned the pay rate, usually $75 per hour and above. Fantastic for a side hustle for a graduate student. Stephen, you said you’ve done five cycles of this mentorship program. And so what have you been doing with this side hustle money? How has this money impacted your financial life?

14:26 Stephen: Yeah, I mean, it, in a sense it provides a certain semblance of security, right? So, you know, as a graduate student, you don’t really make a whole lot, really, especially when you consider taxes and just having to pay student fees and all of this stuff. So basically that money basically affords the ability to have hobbies again, whereas before it could be difficult to do that. So I’ve done martial arts my whole life. So being able to pay for training at gyms, that’s sometimes a sacrifice that has to be made of, you know, if I don’t have any additional income, it may be hard to kind of balance that out. So that’s, you know, one place, it also just adds a little bit of actual savings to your life, which is, you know, an amazing thing to be able to have as graduate student is that you can kind of accrue that semblance of like, oh, I’m not living paycheck-to-paycheck anymore. So I think that those are two key ways that it’s been, you know, a nice opportunity for sure.

15:20 Emily: Yeah. I’m just thinking I’m doing tiny bit of arithmetic here. Okay. So $75 an hour once per week, we’re talking 300 a month if you’re doing this for a whole month. And I know, because this is cyclical, people might not be like continuously involved with mentorship, but let’s say you do it for six months out of the year. That’s $1,800 coming in for the year that you didn’t have before. And that goes a pretty nice far ways to contributing to an IRA, for example, where the max is $6,000 per year. If you wanted to invest it there are plenty of other good things you can do. Like Stephen, you just said improving your physical and mental health and you’re making time for hobbies and so forth. Lots of good things you can do with money, but that’s a pretty nice chunk of change, especially as we mentioned for the hourly commitment.

Commercial

16:06 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. We have a special event coming up on Friday, August 27th, 2021. It’s the fourth installment of my Wealthy PhD workshop series. The subject is debt repayment. This workshop is for you if you’re in debt of any kind and want to learn the best strategies for getting out of debt. These strategies are tailored to the PhD experience, particularly that of graduate students. We will cover student loans, of course, which are such a complex topic, as well as mortgages, credit card debt, auto debt, medical debt, et cetera. I’ll give you a spreadsheet that will help you work through in which order to tackle your debts, taking into account the type of debt, the interest rate, and the pay-off balance. We’ll also discuss how to sustain your motivation through a long debt repayment process. This is going to be a value-packed session. So please join us on August 27th. You can register at pfforphds.com slash wphddebt. That’s PFforPhDs.com/W for wealthy P H D D E B T. Now back to our interview.

How to Inform Your Mentor About a Side Hustle

17:22 Emily: So Stephen, we talked earlier about how flexible and low time commitment this is. Did you choose to tell your mentor that you were involved with this? Did you choose to keep it on the down low? Like yeah. How did the sort of time management work with you and your mentor?

17:39 Stephen: Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, I get that question from mentors all the time actually is how do you kind of balance this with other obligations? And I mean, I would 100% advocate for informing your mentor, right? Because I think without doing that, it’s not really going to be something that is going to feel comfortable for you, but this isn’t something that needs to be hidden, right? This is a teaching opportunity that your mentor is probably going to be very enthused about you doing, you know, especially if they’re not in need of you to be on a TAship. This is just further development professionally. It also affords you the opportunity to make a little bit of extra income, which as mentors will often tell you, it’s nice to not have students feeling like they’re starving. You know what I mean? And so I think that those are pieces that are important.

18:21 Stephen: And so I certainly told my mentor, and basically I just laid it out as this is not going to impact any of my day-to-day work. Because as I was saying before, you know, the flexibility of the scheduling affords you to be able to set this up well after anything that would be needed in your day-to-day. It can be done on weekends wherein you may not have as many obligations to your full-time position, whatever that might be. And so I think that that’s really how it should be approached, is that this is just a additional professional development opportunity. And I would wager that most mentors and most programs are going to completely support and advocate for that.

18:58 Emily: Yeah. I think that unless there’s an explicit prohibition on any kind of outside work for money, this is probably one of the first things that’s going to go over pretty well with a mentor because of the time commitment because of flexibility. Jin, have you seen other mentors take the same approach as Stephen or different ones? Do you have anything to add about how to approach your advisor with, “Hey, I’m going to take this opportunity”?

19:24 Jin: Yeah, I think definitely a lot of the other mentors that I’ve talked to have just made it very clear with their PIs, that this is not going to affect, or maybe this will even enhance, their own work. And especially those who are thinking about, again, a career in teaching, this usually just goes over really well with PIs. The only sort of difference is I think there are some mentors, if they have certain funding from certain foundations and sources that explicitly prohibit, let’s say outside work, then there have been some conversations where the mentor realized that they can’t actually get paid for the work. And they’re going to just volunteer and work with some of our scholarship students in the scholarship program. But in general, for most of our mentors, it’s gone over actually really well with their PIs. And most of our mentors will want to tell their PIs just in the name of transparency.

Anyone Who Might Not Be a Good Fit at the Moment?

20:12 Emily: To kind of expand on that question a little bit more, Jin. So you just mentioned, okay, there might be some limited circumstances where, contractually, graduate students are not permitted to be paid for outside work. Are there any other people who might be excited by this episode and thinking that they might want to work with Polygence, but that you know already would not be a good fit at least at the moment?

20:35 Jin: Yeah, so unfortunately we are not able to employ graduate students who are on student visas, just because with payment issues, we need everyone to have U.S. work authorization. So mentors who are on F-1 student visas or I think J-1 student visas as well. Sadly, the only way to get involved is through volunteering, which some of our mentors still do, but obviously we know that the financial reward is something that’s very important. And so that’s one thing that’s unfortunate. But for international mentors who are on OPT, CPT, or H1B visas or obviously on a green card, they are absolutely welcome to the paid side of the program. But again, just because of legal issues, we can’t with international students on student visas. Yeah. And I would also say in general, in terms of like what makes a good mentor, is someone who’s really excited about teaching, someone who likes connecting with young kids, and who has a little bit of extra time and energy to devote to this.

21:38 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. And if any international students or students on F-1 or J-1 visas are listening, I released an episode a few months back on what kind of side work is allowed for students on those visas. And it’s a very illuminating episode. So we’ll link it from the show notes, but yes, very clearly this would be considered self-employment income. And that is not a type of income that F-1 students can pursue except on OPT or CPT. So yeah, just want make that clear, but Jin, you’re kind of speaking from personal experience here. You know, you mentioned that you were an international student, at least when you first came to the States. So can you talk more about your experience founding this startup as an international student and someone pursuing their PhD? That’s a lot of things.

22:18 Jin: Totally. It was, I think emotionally, just so, dealing with American immigration is just, I think emotionally exhausting, and I’m still in the middle of it because now I’m actually in the middle of dealing with the green card process, which is a whole separate headache. But yeah, so I was on F-1 from undergrad until the beginning of my PhD. And then when I first established Polygence with my co-founder, I was still an F-1 and I just wasn’t getting paid. It was just sort of like a unpaid thing for the exact same reasons that we were talking about. And then when I decided I wanted to take time off and be paid by the company and do work on Polygence full-time, I then applied for part-time CPT because I wasn’t ABD yet. Like I wasn’t all but dissertation yet, so I couldn’t exactly just do OPT.

23:06 Jin: And so I was on part-time CPT for the first year of my full-time work with Polygence. And then I got married and then started the green card process after which I got the temporary EAD from work authorization thing. But all that to say, I think, yeah, navigating immigration and having an extra source of income as an international student, like I know full well to all of our listeners who are going through the same thing, like how much of an emotional drain it is. But there are ways to work around it. And sort of going back to our previous topic of how the department or how my own, you know, academic bosses dealt with it. They were actually really, really supportive of me actually taking time off even, partly because the job market is so dismal in the humanities that they’re like, if it’s one PhD candidate to fight for one job in comparative literature on a yearly basis, that’s, you know, a win for us. And so they were actually really supportive of me taking a break and helping me throughout the whole visa debacle.

Jin: What is Your Work-Life Balance and PhD Status?

24:14 Emily: So I definitely understand the pressures and the circumstances that led to you saying, okay, this is a solution. I need to take a pause in my program, do CPT for a bit. Are you back into pursuing the PhD actively now? Like what is your work-life balance going on right now?

24:32 Jin: Yeah, it’s still a little bit complicated right now. I’ve finally gotten to ABD. I was actually working somewhat on my perspectives and on my research during the first year of me being on CPT. But now that I’m all but dissertation, I can just take my time. I’m not being funded by Stanford at all. But I’m still sort of on paper enrolled so that I can still stay in housing and get health insurance, that kind of thing. But I am full-time working on the company.

24:59 Emily: Oh, that’s so interesting. Yeah. I didn’t realize you had that set up right now. So everybody hates this question. How long do you think it will take you to finish the PhD? Like when you have a full-time position and you’re doing this on the side, I know this is something that so many people get into when they are ABD, especially in fields like yours, where you don’t have to be in the lab and you’re not being funded by a grant and blah, blah, blah. So like just let us know a little bit more about how you’re managing both aspects of this work.

25:25 Jin: Yeah. It’s definitely a little hairy and tricky because I actually still have, I think one or two more courses that I’m supposed to teach at Stanford. But other than that I’m essentially just writing. And it depends on how quickly I write and how much time I can spare outside of working on the company. Right now, it’s not a lot of time that I can spare, just because I think the company just takes up all of my bandwidth and mind space. That being said, I definitely do want to finish it, because the research I’ve been doing and the novels that I’m working with are things that I care deeply about and derive a lot of intellectual satisfaction from. But I think it really is still a bit of a black box in terms of when I can devote myself to the extent that I would want to. And to the extent that the work deserves my attention while working on the company. So that is still a little bit unclear. I was thinking that maybe I could slowly chip away at the dissertation while working on the company, but that’s clearly not really happening. So I’m going to have to sort of kick the can a little bit further down the road.

Next Steps for Getting Involved with Polygence

26:30 Emily: Okay. Well, that was fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing. Let’s circle back to how people can get involved with Polygence if they want to. What is the next step, if they’re like, oh yeah, I’m really, really interested in becoming a mentor. I want to learn more.

26:42 Jin: Yeah. So the next step would to go to the link in the show notes. It’s our short mentor interest form. It takes three seconds to fill out. And once you fill that out, we basically ask you what discipline you’re in, where in your program. Yeah. What stage in your program you are, name, email, whether you have work authorization, very important. And then after that, we will ask you to schedule a 15-minute preliminary call with one of our mentor interviewers. And it’s where you can learn a little more about the program, ask questions about what students are like, what kinds of projects they do. And then after that interview, we will set you up on the platform with your own profile account. And then after that, we will start sending you students once we’ve done a background check on you as well. And then we have a lot of really cool mentor programming and scaffolding to help you get more comfortable with this kind of one-on-one Socratic project-based teaching model, where we offer sort of teaching demo preparation sessions, where we ask you to prepare a mock assignment. And we put you in groups with other new mentors, and maybe Stephen can talk a little more about those because he’s the leading a lot of them.

27:47 Stephen: Yeah. So the teaching demos, they’re the opportunity for incoming mentors who have been matched with a student to be able to kind of review some general tips and tricks essentially of, you know, how to kind of engage with the student initially, because we have a lot of mentors who come in with previous teaching experience, obviously, but with a particular format that we are trying to support. Sometimes it’s a little bit different, right? Because you mentioned earlier, Emily, about how like most of these teaching opportunities are typically in groups, which kind of affords a certain social flexibility. But when it’s, one-on-one, it’s a slightly different architecture, which requires, you know, a little bit more of a, like how do you motivate maybe a shy student or how do you engage with a student who’s very enthusiastic and maybe needs to kind of regain some semblance of focus? You know, those are just little things that can come up, but we, as, you know, mentor support team members, we want to make sure that mentors feel like they have access to the information that they’ll need to be as successful as possible with students, because their success very directly affects the success of the students. Right? So we want to make sure that we’re providing that kind of support.

Best Advice for an Early-Career PhD

28:55 Emily: I’m so glad to hear that you’re not just being thrown into like, as happens so often in academia, you’re just being thrown into a situation and expect that you already know what to do, and there’s no like clear way to go for help. Okay. That’s really good to hear. Awesome. So people know where they can go next and we will just wrap up by, I’ll ask you the same question that I ask of everyone that I interview on the podcast, which is what is your best financial advice for an early-career PhD? And Jin, why don’t you go first?

29:22 Jin: That is a million-dollar question. I would say be on top of your savings and make sure that you are saving at least a little bit every month. I know a lot of people, you know, also have student loans to deal with and other things. But I think what was really helpful for me is like really learning how to budget and make sure that on a weekly basis or even on a daily basis, I know how much is coming in and out of my accounts. And also if you’re able to, you know, have a little bit of fun as well, be kind to yourself because I think being a PhD student or any graduate student is really hard mentally and intellectually. And if you have, you know, a little bit of extra funds, whether it’s through Polygence or some other side hustle, treat yourself to something from time to time and just be kind to yourself because this is a marathon, not a sprint.

30:11 Stephen: Yeah. Well, for me, it works out best to use an Excel sheet honestly, right? For the budgeting. And I think that it’s good to kind of orchestrate what is good for you. For some people, they want to spend more money on food. Some people want to spend more money on free time, hobbies, whatever it might be. But I think kind of looking at what you have available to yourself, setting aside, obviously, a column for savings just for who knows what, but, you know, as Jin was saying, being able to kind of establish something to give yourself a break every once in a while and provide yourself some semblance of excitement, I think is really key. Because once you have that, you won’t feel the need to maybe overspend unnecessarily in certain segments of your life. And so I think that that can really be a great way to get the most out of what you have available as a grad student. For sure.

31:00 Emily: You both articulated that so well. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode and I hope that you have a great season of recruiting mentors. Hopefully, a few from this podcast.

31:10 Jin: Thank you, thanks for having us.

Outtro

31:10 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license prerecorded workshops on taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps! The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio, and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Where PhD Candidates Are Full-Time Employees with Benefits

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Veronika Cheplygina about the differences between how universities in the Netherlands and the US financially support their PhD students. In the Netherlands, PhD candidates (beyond the master’s level) are full-time employees under a 4-year contract that specifies their pay and benefits. It’s a secure position with only slightly lower pay than other types of positions. Veronika explains the financial and psychological benefits of this system and describes her lifestyle while she completed her PhD, which included purchasing a home. Prospective PhD students who are interested in doing their PhDs in the Netherlands should listen through to the end of the episode for application advice.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

phd candidate employees

Teaser

00:00 Veronika: You know, when I was doing my PhD and I saw this PhD Comics for the first time, I didn’t recognize the whole situation of like people hunting for free sandwiches. It’s not a lot compared to industry, but it’s also decent. And you can sort of take care of your basic needs.

Introduction

00:24 Emily: Welcome to the personal finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This Is season nine, episode two and today my guest is Dr. Veronika Cheplygina who holds a PhD in computer science from Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands. Veronika and I explore the differences between how universities in the Netherlands and in the US financially support their PhD students. In the Netherlands PhD candidates beyond the master’s level are full-time employees under a four year contract that specifies their pay and benefits. Veronika explains the financial and psychological benefits of the system and describes her lifestyle while she completed her PhD, which included purchasing a home. This is the perfect time of year for prospective PhD students in the US to consider broadening their search to include universities in the Netherlands and other countries with similar funding models.

01:24 Emily: On June 6, 2021 at 4:00 PM Pacific, I’m conducting an interactive workshop on choosing the optimal financial goal for you to work on right now, whether to save up cash, invest or pay down debt. I’m a firm believer that you should work on only one or a minimal number of financial goals at any given time, especially when you have a limited income like while in graduate school or a post-doc. Prior to the workshop, you’ll prepare your balance sheet, which is a record of all of your assets and all of your liabilities.

01:56 Emily: During the workshop, I’ll present my eight step financial framework, which I developed specifically for early career PhDs. I’ll show you how to break down your balance sheet to determine which step in the framework you’re currently on and what financial goal I suggest that you work on next. This workshop is for PhDs at all career stages, from rising graduate students through to PhDs with real jobs who are members of the Personal Finance for PhDs Community. If you’re not yet a member, you can easily join the community at PFforPhDs.community, and find details about the event under the course title, the Wealthy PhD workshops. If I get a good response from this first workshop on my financial framework, I’ll plan more of these live workshops for community members, which will be deep dives into money mindset, investing, debt, repayment, cash savings, and cashflow management. Sign up for the community today pfforphds.community, for access to the workshop on June 6th and much, much more great content.

Book Giveaway

03:05 Emily: Now onto the book giveaway contest. In May, 2021, I’m giving away one copy of “Bad With Money: The Imperfect Art of Getting Your Financial Sh*t Together” by Gaby Dunn, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for July, 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during may will have a chance to win a copy of this book. Today is the last day to enter. The Bad with Money podcast was first recommended to me by one of the participants in my program, The Wealthy PhD. I think it’s going to generate a lot of great discussion in the book club. So please consider joining us pfforphds.community. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on apple podcasts, take a screenshot of your review and email it to me emily@tpfforphds.com. I’ll choose a winner at the end of may, from all the entries you can find full instructions pfforphds.com/podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Veronika Cheplygina.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:09 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Veronika Cheplygina. She’s currently an assistant professor in the Netherlands, and she’s actually going to teach us today how the path to the PhD in the Netherlands compares to the path to the PhD in the United States, which of course I can represent that position. I think this will be really interesting to our American listeners, listeners in other countries, to compare these two paths, especially for anyone who has not yet embarked on the PhD. But I also think it’s going to have value for people who are already in graduate school in the United States, because there’s a very different view of graduate students there that we could really benefit from adopting, to a degree. We’ll see where the conversation goes. Veronika, thank you so much for joining me and will you please tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself?

05:01 Veronika: Thank you so much for having me it’s a pleasure to be here. As you said, I’m currently an assistant professor at Eindhoven University of Technology. My background is in computer science. I did all of my degrees in Delft, which is a different university of technology, also in the Netherlands. This was followed by, I got my PhD in 2015, followed by a two year postdoc and then, the tenure track, which I’m currently doing now. I am however, also leaving my tenure track in favor of a tenured associate professorship in Denmark, in Copenhagen, where I’m starting in February, 2021. I think that sums it up.

Overview of the Path to the PhD in the Netherlands

05:49 Emily: Congratulations on the new position and the upcoming move. We’re recording this in December, 2020, so I think you’ll have completed that by the time this is out so wonderful. Let’s get an, a quick overview of the educational path to the PhD in the Netherlands. Let’s start at the bachelor’s level: how much time does it take, how is it funded? Would you please answer that?

06:15 Veronika: Sure. Usually for the university level, there’s a three year bachelor program. It is formally separated from the master’s programs, which can be one or two years, but I think in practice, usually universities offer matching masters for different bachelor programs. I think most students end up doing the matching masters. It’s rather usually that the bachelor’s and the master’s are done together in five years or so, then that the master’s is as part of graduate school as in the US.

06:52 Veronika: And then after master’s, some students may go on to do a PhD, which would be typically a four year full-time trajectory. I think it’s different from the US in that you don’t really have a lot of courses anymore, as you would have had the research component in your master’s. Perhaps you might do some career development courses and such, or like an in depth summer school. From the time you’re, well at PhD researcher, I should say you were actually a university employee, and I think that makes a big difference for the experience.

07:36 Emily: Yes, absolutely and we’ll get into that quite a bit more. Then what about the funding? So you just said at the PhD level for the PhD training, you’re a full-time employee. What’s going on with the bachelor’s and master’s equivalent earlier than that? Is that funded by the student? Is it funded by the state? How’s that?

07:56 Veronika: The bachelors and the masters is a combination of the student and the state. I think the current tuition fees are around, for a domestic, and by domestic, I mean European union plus people with an eligible residents permit, that would be about 2000 euros a year in tuition. And the government contributes to this for the universities. So universities get funded centrally depending on the number of students there. I think the fee for non-EU students is quite a bit higher, but still, probably not at the level of many US schools. Then for the PhD, it’s an employment position which needs to be funded beforehand. As professor, you would need to acquire some kind of grant from a funding agency. And if you have that guarantee that you have this financing, then you can advertise a position. As a starting assistant professor, if you don’t have any kind of startup package from the university or already a grant on your own, you cannot say I’m recruiting grad students. Yu might have a master’s students will, of course need, will need to do a research project, but the PhD students, PhD researchers rather, you would need to finance yourself.

09:37 Emily: So to draw a contrast with the system in the US, it seems like for you all at the bachelor’s and master’s level, that’s where people are really viewed as students, right? You’re a learner you’re there to consume the product of the university and develop yourself, as a scholar. And it’s relatively inexpensive compared to here. There’s a big, big, big distinction between the master’s level and the PhD training level before you’ve actually completed your PhD in that it’s treated as a full-time job for your position and you’re going to finish in that time, it sounds like. Does anybody ever go over that amount of time or is it very firm? You’ve got four years you’re going to finish.

10:21 Veronika: Well, you get your salary for four years, unless there have been some special circumstances. For example, if you would take a 80% full-time working hours, you probably would have a longer time. Your salary will stop after that. It doesn’t mean you will necessarily defend your thesis in that time, but most people do aim to submit within then. Of course, this doesn’t always happen depending on your personal circumstances, et cetera, but I think it is doable in four years, given that you don’t have lots of courses and teaching, you would be required to help out a little bit in the department, but that’s not your main occupation. I do have to of course say that this is based on my model of how I experienced things, and I’m sure there are also departments that try to deviate from this, but this is how it should be and how I’ve seen it work in several places.

11:23 Emily: I see. Yeah, it seems like the contrast here, I guess, is that you have the opportunity to be paid at the master’s level. If you’re already, typically, if you’re already enrolled in a PhD program, you’re going through, what would be your master’s. You have the opportunity to receive a stipend usually during that time, but it’s not much. I’m curious about how much in the Netherlands, the PhD students or trainees, you know, PhD employees, PhD researchers are being paid compared to what’s enough to get by on, because definitely here, it’s a question mark, whether you’re going to be above or below that line as still a graduate student. How is the pay compared to if you had a full-time job that wasn’t PhD training?

12:11 Veronika: I think it’s a little bit less than, so for example, for, for me in computer science, industry jobs would be paid a little bit more. I think, compared to some other jobs, maybe straight after master’s, it’s not that much of a difference. I looked up, there are salary scales for these PhD positions, I looked it up just before, and it’s about 2,400 euros, before tax for the first year of the PhD. And it’ll go up to like 3000 to the last year. Of course the amount of after tax will depend on several other issues, like if you own property, et cetera. I think it should be, definitely if you’re sharing a living space with somebody else, it should definitely be okay. When I was doing my PhD and I saw this, PhD Comics for the first time, I really didn’t recognize myself…I didn’t recognize the whole situation of people hunting for free sandwiches everywhere. It’s not a lot compared to industry, but it’s also decent and you can sort of take care of your basic needs.

13:39 Emily: Yeah, I think that’s maybe the most impactful statement you could make in terms of to the credit of the system that you have there, is that it does not feel like what’s going on in PhD Comics. That’s wonderful.

Psychological Benefits to Being Treated as an Employee during the PhD

13:51 Emily: Okay, so you’ve said that once you get to the PhD candidacy stage, you’re a full-time employee of the university. What do you think is the psychological benefit of being viewed and legally treated as an employee versus as a student, like in the earlier stages? Let’s leave aside the financial for now, but just the psychological,

14:15 Veronika: I think it’s a good thing that you are in the same kind of position as your supervisors. I mean, you have, even though they will, of course be in the higher salary scale, you kind of have the same rights and I think that makes for a more equal playing field. Also several things you would not really necessarily need your supervisor’s permission for. Of course, it’s good if you inform them if you are ill or so, but actually that kind of thing would be arranged centrally by a party outside of the university. It just feels like you’re less dependent on your supervisor in personal matters. There’s just a bit less things to worry about. You can concentrate more on doing your job, your research and your life outside it.

15:16 Emily: Yeah. I’ve actually been reflecting on this recently. I had another podcast interview within the last few weeks and I believe it will be published recently before this one. It was with Laura Frater and she said something in that interview that’s really stuck with me since then, which is to not view yourself as a student while you’re pursuing your PhD. Because, and this is my interpretation of what she was saying, if you view yourself as a student, you sort of have an out for doing normal, like adulting things, like taking care of your finances and maintaining your relationships and keeping your body and mind healthy and so forth. Because we think of this, in the US we think of being a student, like being an undergraduate student as this just like magical period, when all you have to focus on is your education and no time passes and you stay healthy and everything’s wonderful, which is realistically not at all the case, especially when you do this for five, 10, whatever years into your twenties and thirties. I think that merely that switch alone of like, no, I literally am a full-time employee of this university – I’m receiving benefits, I have decent pay, would be a massive sort of, it’s like a graduation out of adolescence, when you’re not being considered a student anymore. That’s how I’m thinking about it. Does that strike a chord with you at all?

16:41 Veronika: That’s very true. I think generally, I tried to limit my hours also during my master’s, but it would definitely be the case I would study in the evenings and weekends, whenever. I think once I started this job, I would just come to the office between 8:30 and 5, which is when my supervisors were there. I just assumed that that was normal. I didn’t have like homework in the weekend and because I was in a small lab and I didn’t really have other PhD students to compare to, I didn’t really realize that people were maybe working on their projects the whole time. For me, there was no expectation to do this. This is definitely something that gets deviated from in some labs. But indeed I think just the realization you’re getting paid to do research for 40 hours a week, it’s also in your contract, that that helps with drawing a boundary there.

17:50 Emily: That actually reminds me of, I did a post-bac fellowship, so a year between when I finished undergrad and when I started graduate school, I did a post-bac fellowship at the National Institutes of Health. And it was a very different feel of an environment than a university feel, at least in my corner of that. People did work, I don’t know if it was 40 hours, but it was daytime office kinds of hours, maybe a little bit longer, that I could see. And I didn’t feel pressure to be staying super late. I would come in for eight or so hours a day, do my work, go home. Really, I was able to have some pretty good work-life balance during that time, which was not at all what I experienced during graduate school, where there was much more pressure to be working longer and just be doing a lot more. It sounds like more of a kind of professional environment rather than an environment that’s focused on the training or the trainee situation. Does that make sense?

18:48 Veronika: Yeah, that sounds that’s consistent with my experience

Commercial

18:54 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. This announcement is for prospective and first year graduate students. My colleague, Dr. Toyin Alli of The Academic Society offers a fantastic course just for you called Grad School Prep. The course teaches you Toyin’s four step Grad Boss method, which is to uncover grad school secrets, transform your mindset, up-level your productivity, and master time management. I contributed a very comprehensive webinar to the course titled “Set yourself up for financial success in graduate school”. It explores the financial norms of grad school and the financial secrets of grad school. I also give you a plan for what to focus on in your finances each season of the year that you apply to and into your first year of grad school. If this all sounds great to you, please register theacademicsociety.com/Emily for Toyin’s free masterclass on what to expect in your first semester of grad school and the three big mistakes that keep grad students stuck in a cycle of anxiety, overwhelm, and procrastination. You’ll also learn more about how to join grad school prep, if you’d like to go a step further again, that’s theacademicsociety.com/Emily for my affiliate link for the course. Now back to our interview.

Labor Contracts for PhDs

20:21 Emily: You mentioned earlier that there there’s a contract, like there’s a labor agreement for people pursuing PhDs. What are some of the elements of that contract?

General Benefits

20:31 Veronika: It’s the same labor agreements basically for all people in academic research. There’s a salary scale that corresponds to the kind of level you’re working at. That’s a different scale for PhDs. In comparison, so I told you that last year a PhD would get 3000 before tax per month, as an assistant professor, who’s just starting and you would get, I think 3,700. So it’s quite a flat ladder. There’s also a pension buildup. I have to confess that I haven’t really looked into how it’s done because I kind of trust that it’s done well, so it’s not something I haven’t had to worry about.

21:23 Veronika: The number of hours that you work and the number of vacation hours, you can take are fixed in there. You can also trade some vacation hours for some other benefits, like for example, extra pension. And then you get sort of like a tax advantage. There’s maternity and paternity leave, 16 weeks for maternity leave. And for paternity, I think it’s five days at full pay and then you can take a number of weeks off at lowered pay. There’s also a sick leave. So I think you can be something like 40 weeks at full pay if you need to, and then also longer at a lower pay. Lots of things like this. Basically life things that can come up, there’s usually a provision for.

22:29 Emily: Yeah. I think that must sound like a dream to a lot of PhD students and maybe even postdoc fellows right now who are in the US who are not treated as employees, or at least not as full-time employees of the university and just to have those benefits spelled out explicitly. It’s very patchwork here. In some places, maybe especially if you’re covered by a contract that’s been negotiated by a union, it can be very clear. I don’t think the benefits would be as high as that because just in the US we don’t get as much leave and so forth, but they would at least be clear.

23:03 Emily: But in many, many, many places, it’s not at all clear what your benefits would be, and it’s not until as an individual you come on to, okay, well, I’m pregnant, so I need to figure out what the maternity leave is going to be, or, okay, I need to take a leave of absence because I’m ill — I have no idea am I going to be paid? Unless you’re covered by probably a union contract, you probably wouldn’t know that until you actually encounter the situation, what the benefits might be. I think that clarity is just so, so helpful. And even on the vacation, like that’s even as a smaller issue, but something everyone encounters every year. That often has to be just negotiated one-on-one with your advisor and sort of oftentimes completely up to that person, whether or not they’re going to grant it or what you have to trade off for it. It sounds wonderful just to have the transparency.

23:56 Veronika: Yeah. I imagine that creates inequalities if you have to do it on a case by case basis, and also depending on how rich the field and the PI is. Here, there’s no difference between social sciences and technology and another thing. The agreement is the same for all academic institutions.

24:20 Emily: Yeah, I just left out something that would be super, super important. It wasn’t part of my personal experience during graduate school, but many, many PhD students here experience funding insecurity. They, they might have funding for a year, but they didn’t know what’s going to happen after that. Maybe they have funding every academic year, but in the summers, they have to scramble to find a certain grant or something. You can feel very precarious when you’re sort of careening from term to term, not really sure where the next paycheck is coming from in the upcoming term.

Funding Guarantee as a PhD Employee

24:48 Emily: You mentioned earlier that a PI couldn’t even advertise a position until the funding has been secured for all four years and so that is a massive difference. Actually in that way, it sounds even better than regular employment, like at-will employment, because I would imagine it’s unusual for a PhD student to be let go from that position, a PhD candidate to be let go, unless something has really gone off the rails with their performance.

25:15 Veronika: Usually you would have an evaluation after a year, and if you show progress in the project, then usually it’s fine and you can continue for the other three. It’s actually more secure, it’s a more secure contract that you won’t get right out of university, because you would maybe have a series of temporary contracts for industry.

25:39 Emily: Anything else you wanted to add on that question?

25:42 Veronika: Oh, yeah. About the financial insecurity. So it is possible here that if you are a student and so often students from China, and there are also some from Brazil, I believe, but they get like a scholarship from the government to come here and their salary is paid through that scholarship. This is possible, but then they, they come to the professor with their scholarship. And then they would be paid, the conditions there would probably be different than for most PhD positions. It’s less common and it wouldn’t be advertised as a PhD position because the person comes with it themselves.

Cost of Living Adjustments

26: 31 Emily: I see. In our prep for this episode, you mentioned to me something about cost of living. So earlier you said that, you know, there’s this agreement that’s been negotiated. I don’t know if it’s between universities and the government or who the parties are, but it’s a set schedule. It’s a set contract that all employees, PhD employees are under. Does the pay vary by city or is it the same everywhere?

26:57 Veronika: It’s the same everywhere.

26:59 Emily: Okay, so there is a consideration for cost of living in terms of how your lifestyle is going to be while you’re pursuing the PhD.

27:07 Veronika: So in the pay that you get there, so consideration for it, but of course, if you live in Amsterdam, it will be much more expensive than if you live in Colonian.

27:19 Emily: Yeah. Gotcha. That’s a little bit interesting, I guess, that there wouldn’t be any adjustments for cost of living.

27:27 Veronika: Yeah. Perhaps I’m not sure if that’s the case. So I know like in the UK, there’s a London allowance because London is just so much more expensive than the rest of the country. I’m not sure we have that here. I also imagine that the differences in the bigger cities are not as big. Like if you would go out more into like a more rural area, then the prices go down very quickly, but then you’d have to commute much more as well.

Veronika’s Personal Finances During Her PhD

28:04 Emily: We’ve talked very generally about the system country-wide and what you observed in your experience during your PhD. Can you tell me how your finances kind of went during your PhD? Were you able to live comfortably? Were you able to save?

28:20 Veronika: Yeah, I think it was quite okay. It was definitely an upgrade from my master’s. Then, I had a part-time job, but I had also the stipend from the government. It was enough to cover my expenses, but with the PhD things went better straight away, especially after the first year, because that’s, when you make the largest jump in your salary. I did also move out from a more student-like apartment to a more adult-like place. So my costs went up then, but I think I was still able to save a little bit.

29:03 Veronika: And actually, in the last year of my PhD, I was able to apply for a mortgage, which was very surprising to me at the time. This is because, after three years in the Netherlands, if you have…Normally for a mortgage, you would need a permanent contract, which you, of course don’t have as a PhD student. But after three years of temporary contracts, you can be seen as a kind of freelancer and the bank averages your salary. At that point in time, my PhD student salary average over three years was sufficient to get a small mortgage for an apartment. In current days this would not be possible because of how the prices have increased recently and I think you also need to have a much larger down payment now then rules used to be. I got very lucky. I definitely don’t want to say everybody in any place anytime can do this, but this was of course a combination of several favorable circumstances after which my living costs actually went down back to like the student apartment level, but for an adult-like place. So that’s been very good.

30:35 Emily: Yeah. That’s a wonderful accomplishment. As you said, circumstances had to come together to make it happen, but it did! Wonderful!

Can a US Citizen Do Their PhD in the Netherlands?

30:43 Emily: If there is a listener, let’s say in the US not in the EU, who’s thinking “This sounds amazing! Why would I deal with the system we have here in the US when I could go there?” Is it possible for an American to complete their PhD in the Netherlands?

30:59 Veronika: I don’t see why not because the vacancies are open to everybody in the world. Sometimes there are some EU specific grants, so if the EU gave you a grant, they want you to employ European citizens, but other vacancies do not have this restriction. I’ve been in groups where there were also people from the US doing PhDs, so I don’t see why that’s a problem. I guess you need to find out first about more specifically about the master’s requirements. It seems to be fairly standard, but I don’t think it’s a hard rule. So I do know of somebody from the US who didn’t have a master’s, but he had some additional research assistant experience, which sort of was sufficient. But this was of course also a couple of years ago.

31:52 Veronika: All the open positions they are listed on academictransfer.com, that’s an aggregator from all of the universities. I guess about the master’s thing, there’s always an administrative contact and the professor, so you could always contact the administrative one to check. Outside of these positions, of course you could always contact a PI if they have any upcoming vacancies, because they might be interested in writing a proposal together with you about something, or they already know something is coming up, but they have not gotten the official documents yet, so they cannot advertise it yet. It’s always worth approaching people want to work with, I think.

32:40 Emily: Yeah, that sounds amazing. And actually just the simple fact of there being a central database of all open positions is incredible. Again, in favor of like transparency and wow, making things so much easier for the applicant, so that sounds great. And I should mention, we’ll link in the show notes, because I’ve done a couple other interviews with Americans who have done their PhDs in the EU. I think they’re both in Sweden actually. But anyway, some similarities, so I’ll link to those from the show notes as well.

33:10 Veronika: For sure Sweden should be similar.

Best Advice for an Early Career PhD

33:13 Emily: Veronika, I like to end all my interviews by asking my guests, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD?

33:22 Veronika: I would say it’s good to look at examples. Of course you need to get over some kind of hurdle of talking about finances, but it would be great to see what are other people spending on different things and how it works, or what kind of insurances and pension schemes and investment things people have. Yeah, I think you can learn a lot from that and it shouldn’t be such a difficult topic to discuss

33:55 Emily: Yeah. Another vote in favor of openness and transparency around these issues. Veronika, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. It was so interesting to me to learn more about the system that you went through and congratulations again on your new position.

34:10 Veronika: Thank you very much.

Outtro

34:17 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email list serve, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt, repayment and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe through that list. You’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. Music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC podcast, editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

Negotiating Your Grad School Stipend and Benefits: Five Success Stories

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In this episode, Emily presents five stories from anonymous guests of successful stipend negotiations between prospective or current graduate students and their PhD programs. The episode is primarily for prospective grad students going through admission season right now and secondarily for current graduate students. Emily summarizes her key take-away points from these stories and her conversations with graduate students about this issue over the past few years. The goal of this episode is to convince you that stipend negotiation does happen, at least on occasion, and perhaps even to give it a shot yourself to improve not only your own bottom line but potentially that of your peers as well. Most of all, Emily wants this episode to get PhD students talking about their pay—how much, when, from whom, in exchange for what. To that end, please share this episode and enter your stipend into PhDStipends.com.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

Teaser

00:00 Guest 1: Overall, I would say that there’s definitely no harm in asking and negotiating a graduate school offer. If I didn’t ask the answer would have automatically been no. And at first, I was scared to ask and really only did because my advisor, whom I admire, encouraged me to do so, but now that I did, I am very grateful and definitely realized the benefits of asking nicely for a better graduate package.

Introduction

00:28 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season eight, episode seven, and I’m joined today by several anonymous guests. This is a compilation episode, all about negotiating your grad student stipend. It’s primarily for prospective graduate students going through admission season right now, and secondarily for current graduate students. I have collected five stories of successful stipend negotiations between prospective or current graduate students and their PhD programs. I’ll also share my observations from talking with graduate students about this issue over the past few years. My goal is to convince you that stipend negotiation does happen, at least on occasion, and perhaps even to give it a shot yourself to improve not only your own bottom line, but potentially that of your peers as well. Most of all, I want this episode to get PhD students talking about their pay — how much when, from whom, in exchange for what?

01:33 Emily: There are two specific action steps that I’d like you to take to further the cause of pay transparency and increasing stipends for everyone, whether you are a prospective, current, or former PhD student. One, share this episode. I hope it will serve as a conversation starter. Two, enter your stipend into PhDStipends.com. I recently gave the website and database a facelift, so you’ll find an updated and more detailed survey along with the over 9,000 previously acquired entries. After you enter your stipend, share that site too. I’ve been contacted by numerous graduate students and faculty members who have used the data to advocate for higher graduate student stipends in their departments.

02:16 Emily: This is such a thrilling time of year for prospective PhD students. I know most of us want graduate school to be better for the PhDs that come behind us than it was for us. I hope the negotiation, examples and best practices that you hear in this episode contribute in a small way to that goal.

02:34 Emily: Now it’s time for the book giveaway contest. In February, 2021 I’m giving away one copy of the simple path to wealth by JL Collins, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for April, 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during February will have a chance to win a copy of this book. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple podcasts, take a screenshot of your review and email it to me emily@pfforphds.com. I’ll choose a winner at the end of February, from all the entries you can find full instructions pfforphds.com/podcast.

03:15 Emily: The podcast received a review this week titled a masterclass in personal finance for grad students. The review reads quote: “I tell everyone I know about this podcast. Every episode is not only packed with value from others, lived experiences, but also actionable info from Dr. Emily Roberts. My favorite eps are always about side hustling and house hacking”

03:36 Emily: Thank you so much to BKT for this incredible review! I’m really glad to know which subjects are the most relevant for listeners. Without further ado, here’s the compilation episode on negotiating your grad student stipend.

03:53 Emily: I have five anonymous stories for you today regarding negotiating a grad student stipend and/or benefits. I solicited these stories from my mailing list and on Twitter, and they all occurred in 2019 or 2020. I wanted to keep the examples of recent, but just know that several more people volunteered their negotiation stories from earlier years.

04:14 Emily: By the way, I don’t get a lot of pushback on Twitter when I talk about financial matters, which I’m happy about, but soliciting these negotiation stories was another matter. Multiple people responded that they believed it was impossible to negotiate a grad student funding package or that it was unethical to do so because it would create pay disparities among a cohort, as if that didn’t already exist. Anyway, I thought it was interesting that the subject seemed to get some people’s hackles up, even though salary and benefit negotiation is an expected step prior to accepting any other type of job. That is just confirmation for me, that this topic warrants even more sunlight.

04:53 Emily: I’ve covered or touched on negotiation and academia, both at the grad student stage and leader in multiple previous podcast episodes, which you can find links to in the show notes. My intentions with publishing this episode are to: one, bring awareness to the fact that negotiation is at least theoretically possible for graduate students, particularly during admission season. This could be considered part of the hidden curriculum. I want to bring it into the open so that all graduate students benefit from this knowledge. Two, share the stories of grad students who have negotiated successfully, wo that prospective graduate students in 2021 in later years can learn from their examples. Three, raise grad student stipends and improve benefits, generally, not just for the occasional individual.

05:41 Emily: One way to do this is by collective action, such as unionization, which I’ve covered in several other podcast episodes. Another is for prospective PhD students to say to the people who hold the purse strings that livable or dare I say comfortable funding packages are important to them as people and vital to their academic and career success in graduate school. Prospective, graduate students have relatively more power than current graduate students to get this message across.

06:11 Emily: Okay, I’ll get off my soapbox now and play for you the five stories I received. Four of these negotiations occurred during admission season, before the person formerly committed to the PhD program in question. One of the negotiations occurred after the person was already enrolled in a program. So don’t think that negotiation is out of the question just because you are past the admissions stage.

Guest One

06:37 Guest 1: Hello. I want to thank Emily Roberts for having me on this podcast. I’m going to be talking about how I successfully negotiated my graduate student stipend offer. For some background information on me, I recently graduated from my undergrad and I did a double major in psychology and biology. And this last year I applied to graduate school for a PhD in neuroscience. When I heard back from all of the schools that I interviewed at, I was accepted into a few different programs and I managed to narrow down my decision to two programs that I really, really liked. Since I really liked both of these programs, I was really stuck at that point, and I was kind of struggling on which one to decide where I would attend graduate school.

07:39 Guest 1: However, there were a few differences between these two schools. One of them was offering me an additional scholarship on top of the stipend and the other one wasn’t. I was actually leaning more towards the one that was not offering me the scholarship. So I thought that I could even just get a little more money from them then that would completely solidify my decision to attend that school. I figured if one of the schools was offering me more money than other programs like the other one, I was debating between probably do the same thing. I was lucky enough to know someone else that also interviewed at the school that I was deciding on and they told me that they were offered an additional $2,500 for the first year. So I was like, okay, I know the school could provide me at least $2,500 more. So I talked to one of my advisors and I told her the entire story and she encouraged me to negotiate for more money. She is a very powerful woman in the STEM field and I look up to her tremendously, so I trusted her and wanted to follow her.

08:56 Guest 1: After that, I wrote a very kind email to the program coordinator asking if there was any possible way that the school could provide me additional support as it would aid in my decision to ultimately attend that school. My email to her included that, I told her I was very seriously considering accepting the offer to attend that school because I really enjoyed the program, the campus, the location was incredible, and it perfectly aligned with my criteria in selecting a graduate school. However, I told her that while I’m excited for the opportunity to attend the school, another school who I’m also considering for graduate school is offering me an additional scholarship on top of the stipend to attend their program, so I was wondering if there was any possible way that this program could offer me any additional support to attend. I told her if, so I’m certain I will choose the school to complete my graduate studies. And of course, I thanked her for her time and her consideration. After I sent that kind email, the program corner coordinator replied back and told me that they could offer me the $2,500. Obviously after that, I was very thankful to them and I decided to attend their program.

10:16 Guest 1: I would like to note that this $2,500 still did not match the scholarship that the other school was offering me. They were offering me about $17,000 spread out over three years. So although the offer made to me by the other school was not nearly as much, I figured that if they were willing to at least give me no whatever they had, and that I was leaning more towards that program anyway, that I would do well there and that I was thankful to them for giving me additional support.

11:01 Guest 1: Overall I would say that there’s definitely no harm in asking and negotiating a graduate school offer. If I didn’t ask the answer would have automatically been no. At first I was scared to ask and really only did because my advisor who I admire encouraged me to do so, but now that I did, I am very grateful and definitely realize the benefits of asking nicely for a better graduate package. I hope all of that helps anyone that is trying to negotiate their student offers and know that it is possible. Thank you, Emily again for having me. Bye.

Guest Two

11:41 Guest 2: Thanks for covering this topic of negotiation. And I’m excited to be telling you a bit about my experience with this. This past season, the admission season starting in 2019, I applied to PhD programs mainly in biological and biomedical sciences with a couple of neuroscience programs mixed in there as well, and I ended up getting a decent number of offers. I think I had five acceptances by the end, which was great.

12:10 Guest 2: I was mainly deciding between two schools. So there was one on the East coast and one on the West coast. The East coast school was a very well-respected and highly ranked program. They had a lot of really great research that I was interested in, and they also had a pretty decent stipend. It was about $34,000 for I’d say a moderate cost of living area. It wasn’t low cost of living, but you could certainly live very comfortably with that stipend in that local area. That was also with, you know, health insurance covered and tuition and fees all paid for all that good stuff.

12:46 Guest 2: The thing I didn’t like about the East coast school was the location. I really didn’t like the city all that much. It also wasn’t the best area for having a good job market for my husband. I wasn’t against it, but I was still kind of shopping around and then the other school, which was actually the last program that I interviewed at, was on the West coast and this program basically checked off all my boxes for me. It had great research, it had a pretty strong reputation and I loved the city. I loved the weather. I liked the vibe of it. It really strong job market for my husband’s field. The only downside was the cost of living. This school actually had the exact same stipend as the East coast schools, about $34,000 with the same benefits and tuition coverage and all that, but it was quite a bit more expensive. And so the quality of life you could have on that stipend would just end up being a little bit lower. You would have to budget a little more carefully. And in particular, the main difference was housing. Housing in that area, if we wanted my husband and I to get like a one bedroom apartment, especially one that was fairly close to campus, it would have been at least $2,000 a month, which would be pretty hard to swing on a $34,000 stipend. And I didn’t want to count on my husband’s income just because we hadn’t moved there yet, we didn’t know how long it was going to take him to get a job and all that. That made me a little bit nervous.

14:13 Guest 2: What I did is I went to the West coast school after I was accepted and I basically laid out everything I told you — that I really liked their program. It was exactly what I was looking for in graduate school. The only issue was that the cost of living made it really hard to live there, and I mentioned that I had this other offer that checked off all the other boxes, other than location. As I went in, I knew vaguely that they had some kind of a priority housing system. At the school, the way graduate housing normally exists, they have subsidized graduate student housing, but you can only live in it for up to two years. And I had heard vague rumors without much detail that there was some way that they would allow you to live there for your entire PhD, not just two years. And the subsidized housing is literally about half the cost of what would normally be. You can get a one bedroom for about a thousand dollars a month. So I just asked them directly, can you nominate me for whatever program that is? And if you do, I will commit to the school immediately. I sent this to the admissions coordinator basically. He emailed me back. He said, I have to check with some people and I have to confirm how many spots they have for this program. So I said, sure. And then a week later they emailed me back and said, Hey, we’re nominating you for this program, congratulations, and I accepted right away.

15:31 Guest 2: I’m really happy with how this negotiation turned out. I think it’s going to make our living situation much more comfortable with not having to pay basically twice as much for our housing. And also not having to stress about like moving and trying to find an apartment before I moved to that city because I don’t live in the area currently. I think it all worked out really well and I would definitely encourage other students to try to negotiate their PhD offers as well, and especially be open to not just negotiating the base stipend, but also those other benefits. Hope this is helpful for other people who are in the same situation.

Guest Three

16:05 Guest 3: Hi. I am currently a first year PhD student in neuroscience at an R01 university and when I was trying to decide which program to attend, I did negotiate my offer a little bit. I’m not sure if I would super consider it a negotiation, but basically what I did do was I had several offers, and one of them was financially a lot more attractive than the other, as well as being from a very fancy name school. Not that the school I ended up with wasn’t a great university, but the other one I had an offer from that was financially a little bit better was one of the top three universities for my area of study. What I did was I emailed the program director and said that a few days before the deadline was to decide and basically phrased it as I know this is a bit of an awkward question, but I was wondering if the graduate fellowship package, which was about $31,500 a year for six years, was something that was potentially negotiable.

17:13 Guest 3: I basically told them that I was accepted to another program, mentioned the name of the university and mentioned that it was a special fellowship offer for underrepresented minority applicants, because I did fit into that category and that because it was such a difference, it made it hard to ignore this other factor that because I was more excited about the university I ended up at, that I was wondering if there was anything they could do to make the offer a little bit better, if there was any possibility for getting additional fellowship because I know the university does give out a few, or if there’s any wiggle room, another area of the offer.

17:53 Guest 3: My email was very casual and very sincere. I was a little bit overly apologetic, I think, but considering my request, I thought that was appropriate. I let him know that if there’s any more information I could provide them with that I could definitely do that. I think for me, what was important was like something that I think certain people wouldn’t mention is that I did fit into this underrepresented minority category in case that was something that might increase my eligibility for certain offers. I did get a reply from the professor that was the director of graduates studies for this program saying that all the offers are out and they weren’t able to negotiate an increase in actual stipend, but they would include an additional incentive called some sort of award. I’m not going mention the name, that they discussed with the director of the institute. It would be $1,500 a year for the first three years of graduate study to be used on educational or training expenses, such as like a new laptop, travel, anything like that, that would help me in the early stages of my graduate career. And that would compound for the first three years. So I can use it for pretty much anything that could potentially contribute to my education.

19:15 Guest 3: This was something that they were adding, in addition. I realized that they couldn’t actually add something to my offer, but this was something that was possible to add on top. It obviously isn’t that big of a difference, but it was something that showed me they did care a little bit more and just made my decision a little bit easier. It did end up, well for me. They also mentioned that they were considering offering it to me, before I emailed them, that’s why I mentioned, I’m not sure how much of a negotiation this truly was, but it seemed to me that it’s pretty common for universities to be able to offer additional money that’s not technically considered part of a stipend, like something like educational costs because a stipend seems like a pretty unchangeable type of offer.

20:07 Guest 3: So that was my situation. The process was easy for me. My decision was easy after that. My phrasing was in my email was very sincere and apologetic. I think it was also important that I mentioned that I really did want to accept an offer from the university I ended up at and that the main thing was that with such a financial difference, it was something I had to consider. So if you are planning on sending an email to someone, I would make sure that they know that you do want to accept their offer. That it’s only financial aspects that are making you hesitate. I wouldn’t ask if you aren’t sure about accepting an offer for that university. Thank you.

Commercial

21:00 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. This announcement is for prospective and first year graduate students. My colleague, Dr. Toyin Alli of The Academic Society offers a fantastic course just for you called Grad School Prep. The course teaches you Toyin’s four step Grad Boss method, which is to uncover grad school secrets, transform your mindset, up-level your productivity, and master time management. I contributed a very comprehensive webinar to the course titled “Set yourself up for financial success in graduate school”. It explores the financial norms of grad school and the financial secrets of grad school. I also give you a plan for what to focus on in your finances each season of the year that you apply to and into your first year of grad school. If this all sounds great to you, please register theacademicsociety.com/Emily for Toyin’s free masterclass on what to expect in your first semester of grad school and the three big mistakes that keep grad students stuck in a cycle of anxiety, overwhelm, and procrastination. You’ll also learn more about how to join grad school prep, if you’d like to go a step further again, that’s theacademicsociety.com/Emily for my affiliate link for the course. Now back to our interview.

Guest Four

22:28 Guest 4: I am an international student from a lower middle income country, and I’m studying at a large public flagship university in the US located in a college town that’s within a significant metro area. I’m in a social sciences PhD program and my department is ranked quite highly, I think in the top 10. Here, there are different funding sources, but the most basic and common that’s guaranteed for everyone comes from the department itself. It pays $20,000 over nine months with no annual increase. Starting in 2020 first year, students get $5,000 for the first summer, but otherwise there is no guaranteed summer funding.

23:10 Guest 4: The stipend is service-based, which means students receiving this must work as TAs for every semester for about 12 hours a week. That’s what’s written on our contract, but in reality, it fluctuates quite a bit. This funding package means that the department covers your tuition, all your fees, like printing, student health, recreation, or fitness, et cetera, and also covers your health insurance, including for your dependents. There’s no other deductions except for taxes. Living wage here is $26,000. So that $20,000 we get is below the living wage. And if you can believe it, many other social sciences departments here have even smaller stipends. But the reality is if you’re single and can budget, well, you can survive. You can live quite decently with the $20,000, but it is below the living wage and there’s no way around it.

24:04 Guest 4: As for negotiating, I wasn’t even aware that you could do it, at first. I did my undergrad outside of the US so I had no idea about funding models here. And also, I guess I just didn’t have the cultural capital, so to say, to know about this process, but luckily at the first open house that I went to, another visiting student told me about it and gave me pointers. He told me to say something during the one-on-one meetings with some professors along the lines of an important factor about going to graduate school includes financial considerations for me, making sure I can live decently while studying, without having to worry about being able to pay for emergencies, blah, blah, blah.

24:50 Guest 4: At that point I prepared my spiel before I started my one-on-one meetings. I was really torn between two universities, both paid the same, same living cost as well, so I didn’t really have full leverage, but both paid below living wage, so that was my first argument. My second argument that I prepared was about the extra constraints I had as an international student, financially speaking. And my third argument was that I received a traineeship from a research center in both universities, which was great. It had certain requirements and usually pay extra, but I found out then that I wasn’t eligible for the funding because of my international student status. I brought up this last point towards the end of the meeting as a way to steer the conversation towards the topic of money. I subtly hinted that I was quite surprised by that and then I just shot straight and brought up my other two arguments. I ended up getting a very validating response, but also as you expect diplomatic. It’s like, we’ll see what we can do, we’ll get back to you. Later that day, I heard other visiting students talking to the director of graduate studies about this, about negotiating during social events or downtimes, so I decided to do the same thing, of course.

26:11 Guest 4: A week after the visits, I emailed the director of graduate studies, again, in both places, just echoing the same points and offering to provide any extra information if they need anything. But that email was mostly just a guise to make sure that this was still on their radar. About a week before the deadline, one school told me that they don’t have news yet it’s still pending. But by then, the other school had promised me an extra $6,000 for the first to work as a research assistant paid for by the professor’s research funds and an award that gave me an extra $5,000 from the research center, so I ended up going with this school. That is when I learned that different professors have different pots of money, of different sizes, sometimes very considerably different. And if you talk to upper year students, they’re likely to be very open about this.

27:09 Guest 4: A few other lessons that I learned from this process, if you have concerns about money, you can be transparent and open about it. You can talk to other visiting students or upper year students because it’s likely on their minds too, or it has been in the past and the conversations may yield interesting insights. If you want to do it, do it. And when you’re talking about money, of course, you need to be polite, and if you’re uncomfortable, I learned that saying something explicit about your discomfort can help the conversation go better. Like, “Oh, I don’t love talking about money,” something like that.

27:48 Guest 4: When you’re doing the ask itself, maybe keep it vague because the prof already usually know what you mean and they know how the department stipend compares to similarly ranked programs, so you don’t have to be too pushy or give a concrete number or anything. I personally think that talking about money with them and reason to your professors should not be a turn off, especially because you will have to talk to them again about money once you’re in the program, and again, when you go into the job market and you’re negotiating or learning what the salaries are like. I think this is good training for you and for me, and part of the hidden curriculum of academia that people talk about. Also, I think expecting your profs to be validating of your concerns when you explain it to them is a very important thing, especially when you’re going to work with them for the next four to six years. In a way this negotiation process can be a method for you to gauge whether or not that professor can be that validating kind of support system for you once you’re in the program. And the worst that can happen is that you realize that they’re not that person and that might be a deal breaker, or that might not be.

29:05 Guest 4: I also realized that international students can be somewhat in a double bind. We are more financially vulnerable, but also we’re not always aware of the system here. Again, this is the hidden curriculum and cultural capital problem. We don’t know that the system here in the US is maybe more flexible than in other countries when it comes to giving accommodations for people. And also we might not be culturally comfortable or adept at negotiating in the American way and advocating for ourselves. I think talking with other international students about this is really important as I learned when I was going through the open house visits as well.

29:49 Guest 4: And lastly, I think the negotiation does not and should not end after you’ve accepted your offer. Negotiation is actually not always an equitable solution to what is ultimately not really an individual problem. It might actually lead to more unequal outcomes when one student is able to get more out of their negotiations than others, just because they have that privileged background to know how to negotiate well and all of these things. I think some ways to address this is to ask upper year students about what advocacy efforts are happening in the department to support graduate students in general, or maybe support international students specifically, if that’s your demographic, especially early in their careers, when they’re more vulnerable and have less resources. To give you kind of an example of the power of advocacy, in our department, we managed to get a promise from our department to fund summers for all first year students after, you know, working with the department to make sure that they know that this is a concern that was important for us students.

Guest Five

30:59 Guest 5: Thank you, Dr. Roberts, for having me on this episode of your podcast. I would say you are doing the Lord’s work. Importantly, this work of yours is sure to prepare one or two howto ask for what they already deserve. Here’s my story in fall 2018 I got an offer, actually two offeres from two universities in the US that I applied to, to come study insect science. Both offers were juicy, or so I thought since I was living in a third world country at a time. Interestingly, I went with the least offer, which was about $5,000 less than the next offer. And by offer, I’m talking about the annual stipend which was $17,000 at a time. So money was never the motivation for me.

31:51 Guest 5: One year in, in the PhD program and I was about $2,200 in credit card debts. Besides my health insurance was so basic that it couldn’t cover for my high insurance. I had to live miserly to be able to get my glasses and whatnot. This began to bother me a lot. This is because I live very simply. I do not eat out. I always cook from home and if I cannot eat in the morning, I bring food along with me to the school. I do not use any fancy gadgets. In fact, 80% of the things that I own were donated to me by graduate students or churches, or I brother was kind enough to lend a brother a helping hand.

32:39 Guest 5: Importantly, I was in debt because my annual stipend was below my standards of living. For emphasis sake, my average monthly expenses, my rent was $595. I pay on average $75 on electricity bill per month. The university bill, which is about $1600 every semester. Now keep in mind, this bill covers the health insurance, international students fee, or what have you. So that means to be able to pay for the $1,600 bill, which is every semester I had to save about three $20 from my monthly stipend. My phone bill is $55 and I pay $65 on my car insurance. I spend about $300 on food. Now, if you had add all of these figures together, you get $1,410. And my monthly take home pay was $1,416.67. And this is the figure before tax. In other words, I get just about $6.67 cents above what my monthly bill is. Again, this figure $1416.67 cents is what I get before tax. Now, if you make the federal tax deduction and the state deduction from my fee, you get way less. I know my federal tax is about $200, but I do not know what the state tax is right now. I’ll probably need to check my pay stub to be able to know what the figure is, but the federal tax is about $200.

34:26 Guest 5: Now, given I’m an international student, I was super nervous about asking for a rise. I went to meet other grad students and post docs whose opinion I value very much on how to navigate this murky water. They all said the same thing: I should never ask for a raise as it might come back to haunt me. So I wasn’t just scared, I was terrified to ask for a raise. But on a certain day, I was reading the book “Self-reliance” by Ralph Emerson in which I saw the quote “Who so would be a man, must be a nonconformist.” And I was all pumped.

35:08 Guest 5: The next day I got to school and I approached one of my advisors. I was more comfortable approaching my male advisor because the atmosphere around him is much more relaxing. I explained how I struggled to meet up with my daily needs, given my monthly stipend. As I anticipated, he was so kind and I listened attentively. He reassured me that I had done the right thing and appreciated me for speaking up because he said he would never have known that I was struggling to make a living had I not approach him. What he did after that was even more amazing. He called me on my way out of his office and he said, “we never had this discussion.” So that way, nothing comes back to me. Later I got an email notifying me of an increase in my annual stipend by $2,500. What is even more interesting is that after six months I got another email notify me of another $2,500 increase in my annual stipend, bringing my current stipends to $25,000, as we speak. And that is my story on how I approached and asked for a raise from my advisors. Thank you.

Key Takeaways

36:34 Emily: Thank you very, very much to the five people who contributed these stories and the others who volunteered. Here are my key takeaways from these stories. One, only negotiate with a program if you are seriously considered enrolling in it. I agree with the approach in these stories of narrowing down to a couple final programs and negotiating with just your top choice or two. Don’t waste, everyone’s time by negotiating with a program that you aren’t seriously considering.

37:01 Emily: Two, there are many different levers that programs can pull to improve your financial situation. The examples we heard in these stories are giving a supplemental scholarship for professional development, giving a general supplemental award, guaranteeing a spot in subsidized housing, increasing an annual stipend and increasing a summer stipend. I’m sure that the constellation of options is unique to each program, which is why your request should be rather general.

37:30 Emily: Three, if you already know who your advisor would be, go ask that person for direction. They may be able to negotiate on your behalf or point you to a next step to do on your own. They are the person most invested in having you complete graduate school successfully. If you don’t yet have an advisor assigned, you’ll likely negotiate with the director of graduate studies or similar.

37:53 Emily: Four, during your negotiation conversation, you should be very polite and express gratitude for the offer of admission, acknowledge that you’re bringing up an awkward subject and express the specific reasons that you want to join their program.

38:07 Emily: Five, while I don’t think you must have a specific reason to be asking for more in your funding package, it doesn’t hurt to have one. Leverage can be in the form of a competing offer, a comparison to the local living wage or personal data regarding the cost of living. I’ve spoken with other graduate students who negotiated after winning outside funding.

38:28 Emily: Six, several of the students in these stories mentioned that of course money was a factor in their decision, but it wasn’t the end all be all. A program being willing to negotiate shows that they are supportive of you. Even if your attempt at negotiation is unsuccessful, there is a world of difference between a program that listens to you, acknowledges your concerns, and cast around for additional opportunities on your behalf, and one that dismisses you out of hand.

38:55 Emily: Seven, several of these students said they only knew that negotiation was possible because other students had tipped them off. I encourage you to talk about the subject openly with your peers and older students. You can use this episode or PhDStipends.com as a conversation starter. You may learn of a financial resource that you can tap. However, as in our last story, don’t be discouraged by people who tell you not to negotiate, if they never tried it themselves. The absence of successful negotiation stories in your circle is not proof that successful negotiations cannot occur.

39:31 Emily: Speaking of unsuccessful negotiations, I did not solicit these kinds of stories, but I have heard a few. Don’t take it personally, if your negotiation is unsuccessful. Like I said earlier, programs have different levers they can pull and some might be super limited. However, if you were attempting to negotiate out of financial need, you should really think about whether you can afford to get your PhD from a program that is unable or unwilling to sufficiently support you financially. Financial stress will curtail your ability to perform academically as well as magnify the financial opportunity cost of getting a PhD.

40:10 Emily: Here are your action steps after listening through this episode. For prospective graduate students: consider negotiating one or two of the offers you have received or will receive this spring. This signals to PhD programs that finance has matter, and that it is a field upon which they can compete for students. For current graduate students: don’t count yourself out on the negotiation front. If you want to be paid more approach your advisor, like the person in our last story did. They should be able to brainstorm with you about methods for accomplishing that and even advocate on your behalf. Speak with your peers and prospective grad students openly about your income and even encourage them to negotiate. The worst case scenario is that nothing changes for you. And the best case scenario is that the department realizes the stipend is an issue and raises it for everyone. For everyone: please share this episode with prospective and current graduate students and enter your current or former stipend and stipend offers into PhDStipends.com. If you can’t already tell, I really want to bring more attention to this issue and sharing this episode will go a long way, so thank you in advance for doing so. If you are a prospective grad student who wants a private space, where we can have more of this type of conversation and even access a training video on how to decipher your offer letters, visit PFforPhDs.com/decipher and join the Personal Finance for PhDs Community.

Listener Q&A: Investing Savings Rate

Question

41:37 Emily: Now onto the listener question and answer segment today’s question actually comes from a survey I sent out in advance of one of my university webinars this past fall, so it is anonymous. Here’s the question: “What percent of income should be used for investment?”

Answer

41:54 Emily: If you’ve been consuming personal finance material for a little while, you’ve probably already heard a few different benchmark answers this question, at least with respect to investing for the goal of retirement. One benchmark that I heard a lot, pre-financial crisis was 10%. 10% of your gross income toward your retirement accounts. If you are a Dave Ramsey follower, he tells you 15%. If you are a FIRE Walker and want to retire early 50% is a common benchmark in that community.

42:29 Emily: So you can see these benchmarks are kind of all over the map, although certainly above zero. Now, since this question comes from a graduate student, I want to emphasize that it is not appropriate, or possible, or necessary for all graduate students to be saving for retirement from their grad student stipends. Some graduate students are simply paid way too little for investing for retirement to even be a possibility. For those of you who were closely following that negotiation conversation from earlier in the podcast, this is something that you should take into consideration when you are planning your negotiation:will you be able to save for retirement from your grad student stipend? So if you have more pressing financial needs than investing for retirement, the answer to this question might be 0%.

43:20 Emily: Now, for those of you who are able and inclined to save for retirement, I will refer back to the financial framework that I talked about in the last episode. In my financial framework, which I developed specifically for our grad students and early career PhDs, investing for retirement comes at step four. So assuming you’ve taken care of steps one through three, and you’re on step four, my answer depends on your age. If you are starting to invest for retirement in your twenties, my answer is 10%, for the moment. If you’re starting in your thirties, my answer is 15%. If you are starting in your forties or later, my answer is 20%. This is a percentage of gross income, by the way, pre-tax income.

44:03 Emily: Now, when you first arrive at step four, it’s not a given that you will have that 10 or 15 or 20% of your income available for retirement investing. So step four is your process of increasing your income and, or decreasing your expenses to the point that you can get to that benchmark. After that you move on to steps five through eight while maintaining that retirement savings percentage in step seven of my framework, we come back around to investing and that’s where I encourage everyone who was saving at 10% from step four, to increase to 15% at a minimum. The logic here is just that most people, most of the time, saving 15% of their income will allow you to retire at approximately what your pre-retirement salary was at age 65 or so. It’s perfectly okay if that savings rate seems lofty to you right now. It’s something that you can work up to over time and of course you have a better shot at achieving it post-graduate school.

45:03 Emily: For my own personal choices in this matter, when I started graduate school, my goal was to save 10% of my gross income toward retirement. I gradually increased that over the course of graduate school so by the time I finished, I was saving about 17% of my gross income into retirement accounts. Fairly shortly after that, my husband and I increased that rate to 20% and it has stayed there for approximately the last five years, as we have been saving for a house down payment. I’m really happy with that savings rate for us right now. After the house purchase, the retirement savings rate might have to come down a bit so we can actually make our mortgage payment, but I’m hoping over the long term to increase it above that 20% benchmark as we do pursue early-ish financial independence.

45:52 Emily: So that’s my answer. And there’s a few different stages, a few different nuances to it, but I hope it gives the listener some clarity. It’s okay if you aren’t able to save anything, especially during graduate school. It’s a really financially difficult time of life, but if you can get to that 10%, 15%, 20% figure you’ll be doing really well. And above that, the question is simply how soon do you want to become financially independent? The higher savings rate, the sooner that date arrives. If you would like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to PFforPhDs.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions, so please submit yours!

Outtro

46:35 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest, and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email list serve, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt, repayment and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe through that list. You’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. Music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC podcast, editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

 

A Lucrative Summer Internship Enabled This PhD Student to Max Out Her IRA

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In this episode, Emily interviews an anonymous member of the Personal Finance for PhDs Community and alum of The Wealthy PhD. Anonymous did a summer internship at Google Research, which helped her evaluate whether she wants to pursue a career in academia or industry and set her up well for an industry career. The internship also paid her in three months approximately what she makes in an entire year on her grad student stipend. Anonymous shares her tips for applying to Google’s summer internship program and convincing your PhD advisor to let you do the program. The sudden but temporary increase in Anonymous’s income spurred her to participate in The Wealthy PhD, through which she opened and maxed out an IRA, optimized her financial accounts, and started tracking and budgeting her expenses.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Anonymous: Kind of talking about how much you earn, or like, how much money you have in your bank account can be an uncomfortable topic. So, having a safe space, or a kind of required space, to be open about your finances and listen to other people’s ideas. I think having this community was really empowering for me.

Introduction

00:26 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode seven, and today my guest is an anonymous member of the Personal Finance for PhDs Community and alumna of The Wealthy PhD. Anonymous did a summer internship at Google Research, which helped her to evaluate whether she wants to pursue a career in academia or industry and set her up well for an industry career. The internship also paid her in three months approximately what she makes in an entire year on her grad student stipend. Anonymous shares her tips for applying to Google’s summer internship program and convincing your PhD advisor to let you do the program. The sudden, but temporary increase in Anonymous’s income spurred her to participate in The Wealthy PhD, through which she opened and maxed out an IRA, optimized her financial accounts, and started tracking and budgeting her expenses.

01:23 Emily: The Wealthy PhD is my signature program that delivers financial inspiration, accountability, and actionable knowledge. Through one-on-one coaching sessions, I help each participant to identify at least one overarching goal that they would like to achieve during the program and map out the necessary steps. I also lead weekly accountability meetings with small groups of participants during which you will set and report on small weekly goals and also receive help overcoming any obstacles you’re facing. It’s an intensive and highly transformative experience. The next cycle of The Wealthy PhD will take place in early 2021. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD. In the meantime, the Personal Finance for PhDs Community is available for you. The Community comprises many financial education resources I’ve created, including the ebook, The Wealthy PhD. The Community is a self-directed experience. However, I am always available to provide assistance and personalized feedback to you through the Community forum and monthly live calls. We also have monthly challenges and a book club. A benefit I recently added is that you are invited to sit in on my podcast interviews and ask your own questions of my guests. You can learn more about the Community and join anytime through pfforphds.community. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Anonymous.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:31 Emily: I have a really special guest joining me on the podcast today. She is a member of the Personal Finance for PhDs Community, and she is also an alum of my Wealthy PhD program. So, we’ve been working together for a few months now. She is actually choosing to remain anonymous for this episode. So, I won’t use her name, but I will let her introduce herself to you in just a second. And we are going to be talking about the wonderful, lucrative internship that she did just this last summer, summer of 2020 with Google and how she got the internship and what it’s done for her finances. So, super excited about this. This is a great one to listen to if you are considering whether or not you should do an internship during your PhD program. What are the pluses and minuses? We’ll be talking about all of that. So, welcome, and will you please introduce yourself?

03:42 Anonymous: Yeah. Great to be here. So, hi I’m Anonymous and I’m a fourth-year PhD candidate studying electrical engineering and computer science, or EECS. Actually, a fun fact about myself is that I actually studied Biomedical Engineering at UC Berkeley, where I went as my undergrad.

Google Research Summer Internship Experience

04:04 Emily: Yeah, good to know. I didn’t even realize that. So, we have that field in common, actually. Okay. So, I mentioned this last summer, you did an internship with Google. What was that type of internship and what do you think you got out of it? Professionally speaking?

04:19 Anonymous: So, the internship was my first industry experience. So, it was actually very valuable for me in and of itself to gain perspective on how research works in an industry setting versus academia. And during the internship, besides doing research, I tried to attend a few seminars which talked about industry versus academia. And there were some great workshops where professors slash research scientists, so people who lead a dual life of industry and academia, talked about their experiences. So, I tried to focus my experience on what would it be like if I were to get a job in industry.

05:00 Emily: Okay, so this was, you were thinking of it as actually kind of like a trial period in helping you decide which way to go in your career.

05:08 Anonymous: That’s right. Yeah. Since I switched my major from biomedical engineering to electrical engineering, before I wasn’t really thinking about industry as much as now. But having switched the major I noticed that a lot of people in my major would start doing internships after their third year or their fourth year. So, I really wanted to try something out to see if I would like it or not.

05:36 Emily: Okay. Yes. Let’s come back to that point in a moment, but I just wanted to hear more about did you actually learn anything new or was it more about you learning the setting and how things work in that setting? Or, yeah, just more about like, what did you get out of this internship?

05:51 Anonymous: So, this internship is actually a little bit special in the sense that it’s very research-focused. So, within Google, I was within Google Research. So, it’s not quite typical industry experience, I suppose. The setting was actually quite similar to how I would normally work with my PhD advisor.

Career Development Opportunities via Google Internship

06:14 Emily: And what about future career opportunities? You know, if you do decide that you want to go into industry instead of academia, you know, do you see the possibility of being hired at Google or at least would maybe your mentor be able to serve as a reference? Or what about sort of the furthering of your career?

06:30 Anonymous: Oh, definitely. So, I’m not sure about other companies, but at the end of my Google internship, I had the option to either return as another intern for next summer, or for those who are graduating within one or one and a half years, they had an option to do full-time position conversion internally. So, at a minimum, this is a great opportunity, I think, for me to get an internship opportunity back again, because I will not be graduating for another two years, so I’m not eligible for full-time conversion. But I think this is also kind of a good motivation for PhD students to do an internship either after their third year or their fourth year. So, I haven’t gotten a job yet, but I think this would also greatly help with the job search once you’re near the end of your PhD.

Why Should a PhD Student Consider an Internship?

07:23 Emily: Yeah, that sounds fantastic. So, both between your reasons and also maybe other people’s reasons, why should a PhD student consider doing an internship? Obviously, there are some programs like yours where it’s more culturally common to do internships. So, maybe speak to the people who are less familiar with why you would do an internship at all.

07:44 Anonymous: So, I think that you should try to keep your options open for those in the PhD. It’s still not late to get new experiences and decide what you would like to have in your career. So, if it’s something that you haven’t tried out before while we’re still in the program, I think that’s a great experience to get. And we will get to this aspect, but usually an internship helps greatly with your financial aspects compared to your graduate stipend. And that can be, I think that’s a wonderful motivator as well.

08:27 Emily: I see. I think the reason that you did this, especially, I think is a really great one is just kind of checking out the setting. Like, is this a place where I’d like to work compared to academia in helping people make their career decisions? I know that I did one, you could sort of call it an internship. It was, it was built more as a fellowship, but I did one three-month fellowship. It was actually after I finished my PhD, but it’s open to people who are not finished with graduate school yet, called the Christine Mirzayan Science and Technology Policy Fellowship at the National Academies. And from their like sort of conception of the fellowship program, it’s very clear that they’re not about like recruiting people to come work at the Academies. Like they’re about offering an experience in science policy to people who will, they always talk about it in thirds. About a third of them might go into careers in science policy.

09:13 Emily: A third of them will probably go back to academia and be, you know, faculty members or whatnot, or work in other roles within academia. And a third of them will go on to have other jobs. So, their purpose is just to give that experience away to people as sort of a way to tell them about what the National Academies are doing no matter what setting they end up in. So, at least that is billed as being very open. Like this is about career exploration and we’re happy to have people, you know, come participate in it for that purpose.

How Do You Discuss Internships with Your Advisor?

09:39 Emily: So, we said earlier that in your field, it’s a little bit more common to do internships, not unheard of. How did you navigate this conversation with your advisor of maybe, should I do an internship? What should the timing be? Is it okay with you? And how do I fit it in with the rest of my research plan?

09:57 Anonymous: I think the easiest way is to talk to your advisor early about, even if you’re a first year student, you probably have some careers aspirations that might change, and that’s totally fine. But try to have regular conversations with your advisor about what you might want to do after your PhD. And actually, your advisor can be the person who helps you get the internship. So, it’s not about getting his permission to do something outside of academic research, it’s working together to find something that works for both the advisor and yourself. And in my case, the research field that I was in while at Google Research, was not exactly my thesis topic, obviously. But it was in the same field of intersections between biology and artificial intelligence. So, I learned a lot of transferable skills in research that is actually helping me a lot right now that now that I’m back in PhD research. So, it’s a win-win in my case.

11:13 Emily: I think that’s a really smart approach to take in any negotiation is put yourself in the shoes of the person across the table from you and figure out what they want to hear and how this would benefit them. So, that’s awesome. You’re going to another setting, you’re learning something new and you’re able to bring back, you know, new ideas, fresh perspective, new insights to your existing resource and to your advisor. Hopefully, everyone can find some kind of connection between, you know, what they might be doing in an internship and how it can benefit their work or their advisor. At least try, that does sound like a great approach.

Tips for Being a Competitive Google Research Applicant

11:48 Emily: So, specifically talking about when you applied to Google Research. This is a fairly big program, right? Like, do you know how many people they accept every year?

12:01 Anonymous: I’m not sure, but probably across the world, there’s thousands of interns for summer.

12:06 Emily: Oh, wow. Is that at the undergraduate and graduate level?

12:10 Anonymous: I think so.

12:11 Emily: Okay. Yeah. So, quite a big program. What tips do you have about being a competitive applicant? Obviously, you were successful, but maybe you’ve learned even more since then about other commonalities that people who are successful in landing this internship.

12:25 Anonymous: Right. Yeah. So, I have some tips from myself and also something that I heard from a student. So, my specific role was software engineering intern. So,, it only applies to that position. Just FYI there are many types of internships within Google, not just software engineering. So, it’s going to be specific to that position. For this position, I had to do something called technical interviews, and I think that’s kind of unique to this one which requires some problem-solving related to data structures and algorithms. Thankfully this process is fairly common in other tech companies as well, not just in Google. And there are plenty of resources out there, too. There a standard interview book that everybody seems to use for this position and also a website called Leet Code to do practice problems.

13:20 Emily: What’s the title of that book?

13:22 Anonymous: The title of the book is Cracking the Coding Interview.

13:27 Emily: Okay. So, yeah, I’ll link to that from the show notes, as well as the website that you just mentioned.

13:33 Anonymous: Yeah. So the book is Cracking the Coding Interview, and the website is called Leet Code L E E T Code. So, I realize that this kind of technical interview might not be really common in other positions. And rather there might be more behavioral, quote unquote, behavioral questions. I think something common that other PhD students might need to do to get internship positions, not just software engineering, but other positions is explaining their research. And a great tip for this I heard is to try to prepare your research speech at three different levels. So, one level is for recruiters who know nothing about your field, the second level is for someone who is somewhat familiar, maybe you might know some terminologies, but not your specific research area. And the third level is someone who might be really familiar. So, maybe he or she is world class expert who invented the technique that you’re using. It’s uncommon that you might get this kind of recruiter, but at least with Google, it’s a large place with many, many smart people who know many things. So, when you’re explaining your research, which I think that would happen in nearly all probably positions that PhD students apply to, I think it’s really beneficial to prepare your speech in three different levels.

14:52 Emily: Yeah, that is a great idea. I’ll add in actually on the, using a book to prepare or whatever, I went through a round or two of interviewing for like management consultant company internships, which I did not get. But there is like a similar process of like everyone uses the same book, everyone practices, they call it casing, everyone practices casing together. And so, you can often find students at your same university who are preparing for the same type of interview. Maybe not even at the same company or whatever, but you can sort of form like working groups and practice together if you want to. I would imagine if you go to a large university, you’re probably going to be able to find some other people who are going through the same process at the same time.

Biggest Tip: Apply Early

15:33 Emily: And outside of the technical interview, do you have any tips on, I don’t know what the rest of the application entailed, but any tips on the rest of it?

15:48 Anonymous: The rest, I had to do a few more interviews regarding project matching. So, this was the phase where research scientists from Google would reach out to me. And we would talk about what their project is about, if I’m interested, what my skill sets are. So, this is where explaining your research comes in. Yeah. Otherwise, I think the biggest actually tip is to apply early. So, I don’t know when this will be published, but right now early October would be a good time to start looking around. Yeah, usually these positions get filled up in a rolling basis and I know really smart students who applied early the following year and they don’t get any offers at all, even though they’re super qualified to do so. So, the earlier the better.

16:37 Emily: Yeah, that’s a great, great tip. Thank you for adding that. We’ll try to push this episode out as quickly as we can so that it gets in front of people in a timely manner.

16:48 Anonymous: Right.

Commercial

16:51 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, which I add to every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, a book club, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the Community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

What Did the Internship Do For You Financially?

17:50 Emily: You mentioned earlier that finances can be a great motivator to do a summer internship. Can I ask you how much you were paid by Google for doing the internship?

18:06 Anonymous: I don’t remember the exact total amount, but I think the total was almost equivalent to the amount that I would get paid by NSF for a whole year. But I got the same amount in three months.

18:21 Emily: So, NSF I think pays $34,000 if I recall correctly, or at least in that ballpark, for the year. So, it’s around that amount of money for three months. So, something like $10-$11,000 a month.

18:35 Anonymous: Yeah. I think it was slightly less than that, but yeah, I think that’s reasonable.

18:41 Emily: Yeah. That is incredible. You know, for a graduate student, you’re a fourth year. So, you’ve been living on, you know, your stipend for a few years now. It’s the NSF stipend, so it’s, you know, relatively generous. And then to get that same amount of money over a very short period of time is–maybe it’s wonderful, but also maybe a little bit like shocking. Like where’s this money coming from? And, “Oh my goodness, how did I do this?” So, what did doing the internship do for you financially? Obviously, the income is high, but then what did you do with that income?

Roth IRA Contribution Goals Achieved

19:14 Anonymous: So, I joined The Wealthy PhD program about the same time that I started my internship to exactly deal with the question that you just posed, which is what do I do with all this extra money? And I had a few goals I wanted to kind of accomplish over the summer. One of which was trying to contribute fully to the 2020 Roth IRA. So, I knew from this podcast that graduate students are able to contribute to Roth IRAs pretty recently. I don’t think I was eligible last year, but I am definitely eligible this year due to the internship. And I wanted to pay all $6,000, like within the summer. Concretely, this internship has enabled me to do that in one go. And that also really helped me with the lifestyle inflation problem. So, I was quite worried when, before starting this internship that I would suddenly live very lavishly and waste all my hard earned money that I earned.

Gaining Control Over Finances

20:23 Anonymous: So, I really wanted to avoid that. And The Wealthy PhD program really helped me to gain control over my finances so that, A) I know how I’m spending my money, which I didn’t really have an idea before. I knew I was kind of close to living paycheck to paycheck. I wasn’t in debt. But I was a little bit afraid and I was the type of person who was afraid to check her bank account sometimes. So, being in The Wealthy PhD program helped me gain confidence to manage my finances. And besides contributing to the Roth IRA, I think I also ended up changing all my bank accounts at the end. It wasn’t my plan. But while in the process, I noticed that I should try to consolidate various different accounts that I had into one place so that I can check more easily. So, it was kind of motivated by that so that I can be on top of my finances and that kind of led to discovering things like I think I had a GenGuard investment account that I totally forgot about. I worked very briefly between my undergrad and grad and I had an investment account that I opened, but I never checked. So yeah, a lot of things got accomplished during this program to gain control over my finances.

21:58 Emily: Yeah. I would say, you know, it was the combination of the extra income from the summer internship plus, “Oh, we have this opportunity now.” And so we’re not only going to be using the money in the best way you can, but also kind of cleaning up some other things that you had lingering in your finances that weren’t quite organized the way you wanted, and so forth. Like changing the bank accounts, like what was going on with that old investment account and like digging it up and figuring out what to do with it. So yeah, that’s wonderful. And as I, you know, what I do with The Wealthy PhD is, actually you have this as part of the Personal Finance for PhDs Community as well. It’s a framework that I developed for early-career PhDs to basically develop financial security and then wealth.

22:39 Emily: And so for you, like the other Wealthy PhDs, we just work on sort of figuring out where you were on that framework and getting organized and getting onto one single step. Because often people start, they are sort of on multiple steps at the same time. Getting onto one step and then moving forward. So, you were able to get through, you know, step four of the program, which is start to invest. You maxed out that IRA for 2020. Plus, you know, you were able to go beyond that, should you want to buy, you know, extra savings and so forth on based on the higher income. I would say it’s a major shift for you personally. Obviously, you know, decided to face your finances enough to decide to participate in The Wealthy PhD. But going from being someone who didn’t want to check their bank account to being, you know, an investor, totally like confident and competent. I mean, that’s a really big change, plus having the money available to do what you want to do with savings and so forth. Yeah, I would say it’s a really big shift. It was really a pleasure to have you in the program and I’m happy to have you continuing on with me as part of the Personal Finance for PhDs Community.

Additional Benefits of The Wealthy PhD Program

23:41 Emily: Is there anything else you wanted to add about your summer internship or about your experience with The Wealthy PhD?

23:48 Anonymous: I think I would like to just say that The Wealthy PhD program was a very valuable one. It was also not just getting over control, but it was the first time where I could speak freely about finances. I guess, depending on how you grew up or your culture kind of talking about how much you earn or how much money you have in your bank account can be an uncomfortable topic. So, having a safe space or like kind of a required space to be open about your finances and listen to other people’s ideas. That was really helpful for me to hear about how other people are dealing with their finances. I know that everybody’s situations are very different of course, but something that I learned that was really interesting to me was side hustling. So, I never thought about, I guess internship is a type of side hustling, but I never imagined anyone in their PhD doing extra work while they’re doing their PhD research. And during the program, I saw many, at least a couple people, who are doing really interesting side hustles. I think someone had a YouTube channel, which is amazing. I think somebody was an actual licensed therapist, which blew my mind. So, I think having this Community was really empowering for me.

25:11 Emily: I’m so happy to hear that. Yeah. It’s obviously something that I love to run. I love to be in. I love to provide support to these grad students and PhDs in this way. As you said, it’s really hard to find a space where you can openly talk about money. So, you have two challenges, right? First find a space where you can openly talk about money. Not too many of those. Secondly, find a space where people actually like can understand and sympathize with your situation of, “I only earn $30,000 a year.” Well, for you this year, that was different. But in a typical year, that would be the case. And, “Oh yeah, I really don’t have any potential for increasing my income on a fulltime basis until many years from now. Oh, and I’m also dealing with lingering, you know, debt issues and not having invested throughout all my twenties,” and all kinds of like unique to PhDs kinds of issues. So, I’m really pleased that I’ve been able to provide that space and that people like you have been taking advantage of it and we’ve been having such wonderful conversations. So, yep. I really appreciate that. Thank you.

Best Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

26:07 Emily: So, as we close out the interview, what is your best advice for another early-career PhD?

26:14 Anonymous: I would say I think just echoing what you just said. Try to start saving for retirement early. I, I think I had this mentality in my early PhD as well. But as PhD students, we mightfeel like we’re not earning enough money. So, we might think that, “Oh, I don’t have enough money for retirement. All my money’s gone after paying rent and food.” Or I think another thing is, “Oh, we’ll catch up once we get a real job. So, we’ll not save during our PhD years, but start afterwards.” But I think something that’s constantly being emphasized is the importance of time and compounding interests in investing. So, even if it’s very little, now that I’m back to my PhD stipend, I’m investing very little, but I’m still investing. As soon as my stipend comes in, I’m investing a certain amount of money to my Vanguard investment account. So, I think that that’s pretty important, no matter, regardless of what you think about how much money you have, where we can catch up afterwards. Just try to save for retirement early.

27:25 Emily: Yeah. You really only know what’s going on today. You don’t know what the future holds. You might stay in grad school longer than you expect to. You might do a five-year post doc. It may be a long, long time until you reach the point that you thought you would start investing. And as you said, with the power of compound interest, the time value of money, those years that go by could have been helping you a lot in terms of your investments. If you have, you know, the means and the willingness to start earlier, then it’s a wonderful idea. I just wanted to add in, actually, because you sort of briefly mentioned this earlier, but prior to 2020 people in your position, fellowship recipients, weren’t able to use IRAs, to contribute to IRAs. So, you could still invest, you could still invest for retirement.

28:06 Emily: It just couldn’t be inside a tax advantage retirement account. However, starting in 2020, that changed. So, your eligibility was different in 2020, not just because you did the internship, but also because your fellowship is now eligible to be contributed. So, I’ll link in the show notes to the podcast episodes that I have explaining that change as well. But it just happened at the end of 2019. So, some people are still not aware of the shift yet. So, yeah, if you have fellowship income in 2020, and you weren’t aware, yes, you can contribute that to an IRA. So, definitely think about doing that, or at least starting one, contribute a little bit before the end before tax day in April, 2021. So, thank you so much Anonymous for coming on the podcast and sharing about this internship experience of what it did for you financially. I found it fascinating. I found it really hopeful for people who maybe in other fields who could take advantage of an internship like this and have kind of a boon year like you did in the middle of grad school when it’s sorely needed.

29:04 Anonymous: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Outtro

29:07 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Why and How to Start a Coaching Side Hustle as a Grad Student, Academic, or Researcher

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In this episode, Emily interviews Cheryl Lau, a PhD student and branding and content coach serving graduate students, academics, and researchers. Cheryl assists her clients with their service-based side hustles, and our interview today is on why and how to start a coaching business on the side of your PhD training or full-time job. Cheryl identifies two mindset shifts that new coaches might need to make before they dive into their businesses and the first three steps they should take. Cheryl shares her story of figuring out personal branding following a quarter-life crisis and the financial impact that her own coaching income has on her grad student finances.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Cheryl: And that’s what I realized that, “Oh, wow. I actually have some answers and suggestions and tips. Maybe I can help people on that.” So, what I did first was actually started working with people for free. And I saw that, well, one of my clients actually was able to get a paying client for her own business. And that’s when I realized, you know what, I can charge for this.

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode five, and today my guest is Cheryl Lau, a PhD student and branding and content coach serving graduate students, academics, and researchers. Cheryl assists her clients with their service-based side hustles, and our interview today is on why and how to start a coaching business on the side of your PhD training or full-time job. Cheryl identifies two mindset shifts that new coaches might need to make before they dive into their businesses. And the first three steps they should take. Cheryl shares her story of figuring out personal branding, following a quarter-life crisis, and the financial impact that her own coaching income has on her grad student finances. You can find out more about Cheryl and her business at cheryltheory.com. Cheryl and I met through the self-tenure community run by Dr. Chris Cloney. And speaking of coaching, Chris is actually my online business coach. If you want to learn more about starting and running an online business as an academic or researcher, definitely check out Chris’s resources at gradblogger.com and selftenure.com. What Cheryl and I cover in this interview dovetails very nicely with some resources I’ve released this fall inside the Personal Finance for PhDs Community. If you run a business as a side hustle, whether coaching or otherwise, you may be interested in my new course, Best Financial Practices for Your Self-Employment Side Hustle. I’ve covered two topics so far how to budget with a variable side income and how to choose a self-employment retirement account. If you are maxing out your IRA this year and don’t have access to a 401(k) or 403(b), I highly recommend the latter module. To view all the benefits of being part of the community and sign up, visit pfforphds.community. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Cheryl Lau.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:30 Emily: I’m really excited to introduce you all today to Cheryl Lau. She is a branding and content coach focusing on PhD, students, academics, and researchers. And specifically today, we’re going to be talking about coaching businesses. Now, I just said, Cheryl herself is a coach, she helps other people who are also coaches, and I also serve as a coach. So, we have a lot of coach talk going on today. And just to frame this a little bit, Cheryl specifically works with people who doing coaching or other service based businesses as a side hustle. So, this is absolutely something that you can do on the side of your graduate work, your PhD training, your full-time job. That’s perfectly okay. So, I want you to keep listening to this episode, even if you’re initially thinking, “Wait, why would I become a coach? What could I possibly coach someone about?” No, that’s what we’re going to be talking about today. So, you’ll probably have your mind expanded a little bit about the possibility of you starting a coaching business, and Cheryl’s here with us too, to help us do that. So Cheryl, will you please tell the audience just a little bit more about yourself?

03:32 Cheryl: Sure. So hi everyone. My name is Cheryl and I am originally from Toronto, Canada, but right now I am based in Hong Kong. So, originally I studied psychology at the University of Toronto, and now I am starting my PhD in Social Welfare at the Chinese University of Hong Kong. And online, I am a brand and content coach or strategist, and I basically help academics, graduate students, and researchers to really show up online confidently and build a brand and a side hustle business that really makes an income and an impact.

What is a Coach, and What is a Coaching Business?

04:05 Emily: So perfect. Thank you. Okay. So, Cheryl, what is a coach, and what is a coaching business? Because I know a lot of people, my audience will never have hired a coach for anything, they aren’t coaches themselves. So, what exactly are we talking about?

04:18 Cheryl: Sure. So the pure, pure, pure definition, if you search on Google, I’m sure the definitions will be something along the lines of empowering the client to make a decision for himself or to empower clients to really think on their own and think about how they want to achieve their own goals. So, that’s like the pure, pure definition of coaching. But how I like to look at a coaching business is basically using your own preexisting skills, knowledge or experiences to help someone solve a problem. And that could be in the form of coaching, mentorship, or teaching. So, basically if you’ve been able to get a result for yourself or for others and you can help other people achieve that same result, you can start a coaching business on that.

04:59 Emily: Yeah. So, a coaching business could be drawn out of professional expertise, certainly, but it can also kind of be drawn from expertise that’s developed through your personal journey and then expanding that beyond just yourself, working with other people, learning from other people. And I would say that latter describes, you know, my journey as a personal finance expert, right? Like I don’t have any certifications when it comes to like the financial stuff, but I’ve spent enough time in this space, talked with enough people, listened to enough great resources that I consider myself an expert, and bill myself as an expert in that area. So really, you know, you don’t have to be a professional in the area that you ultimately coach in. You just have to be, well, frankly, you just have to be more competent than your clients, really. I’ve heard it said that, to be a coach, you have to be just one or two steps ahead of the person you’re trying to help. So, like in the financial realm, you don’t have to be a certified financial planner. If you want to coach people on their budgeting, you have to be like pretty good at budgeting. You don’t even have to know about investments or all the other stuff. So, you can sort of narrow the scope of what you’re going to be coaching on based on the actual expertise that you do have. Don’t feel like you have to be an expert across the board at everything, right?

06:11 Cheryl: Yeah. And I totally agree with that. I feel like there are maybe a few different ways that people can look inside or in the past and assess where they can draw, they can derive a coaching business from. So, maybe like you said, your personal experiences or maybe achievements you’ve accomplished. Let’s say, for example, maybe you were a TEDx speaker. You can teach people how to become a TEDx speaker or get invited to speak at TEDx events. Or maybe if you’re really just naturally gifted at something, maybe you’re just a naturally good listener, so maybe you have a particular strength and you’re really upbeat and motivating and uplifting to other people. You can support people by being a listener. Perhaps you can become a life coach eventually. So, there are many different ways you can look at your skills, your achievements, or your strengths. And I think by looking at those three areas, you can kind of start thinking about what are things I can help people solve a problem on?

Why Coaching is a Good Side Hustle

07:05 Emily: Absolutely. So, let’s get back to like the idea of the coaching business. Why would someone want to pursue this while they have a full-time job or while they are in graduate school, for example? Like why is this a good side hustle?

07:20 Cheryl: So, as graduate students or academics, your time is very, very valuable. And by being able to start a coaching business on something that you already know by using your preexisting knowledge, skills, or experiences or achievements, you’re not starting from scratch. You’re not learning an entire new craft from stage zero, but rather you’re already building on top of what you already know. So, the learning curve is a lot faster. And that said, you really do not need an original idea. So, contrary to maybe startups where you need something that’s very new and fresh and original, here, your coaching business model or the problem that you’re helping to solve for other people. It’s usually kind of mundane. It’s nothing that new. So, maybe for example, for me as a brand and content coach, there’s many people helping others in marketing or starting an online business or side hustle.

08:17 Cheryl: So, the idea itself is not new, but in fact, where there is competition, that means there’s more demand for that service. And so, because time is so valuable as a graduate student or a PhD or academic, by building a business that doesn’t require you to learn that much skills upfront, you can save a lot of time. And also by working closely with your clients, whether that’s one on one or in a group setting, you’re really able to help pinpoint what are areas that people are getting stuck on and you can really answer their questions and help them resolve issues as they come up really quickly. And as a result, your clients are getting much faster results and much higher quality results than if you were to just create an ebook and give them all the information and they were to implement it on their own. Because challenges do come up, limiting beliefs and self-doubts do come up. But if you’re able to coach them through those limiting beliefs, then they’re able to get results much, much faster. So, those are a couple of reasons people might consider starting a coaching business.

Active vs. Passive Coaching Income

09:17 Emily: Yeah. You made a couple great points in there that I wanted to follow up on. One is regarding like the value of your time as a researcher. Service-based side hustles in general, they’re the fastest way to make money on the side when you’re literally trading your time for money. So, you know, you mentioned this in contrast to like for instance, writing ebook and publishing it and maybe generating passive income over time. That’s another way to help people, but they’re very different approaches and you can charge a lot more for one-on-one or small group services than you can for an ebook, for example. And you’re literally just trading like your hours for money. And so it’s very, very fast. You can build it very quickly, turn it around. Of course, you need people who want your service.

10:03 Emily: But it’s a very quick way to make money and more reliable, I would say, then doing something like trying to generate passive income from an ebook. And I think another point that you made in there that I wanted to pull out is that the way that you’re serving people is different than them just trying to learn something on their own. They probably have already attempted to learn and take action on whatever the subject area is that you are coaching in. Like in my sphere, in personal finance, maybe someone listens to my podcast, other podcasts, maybe they love to read about personal finance, maybe they read books. But there is still a disconnect between absorbing that information and actually implementing it in their life. And so if someone is at that stage of, “Well, I’ve taken in a lot of content, but you know what, I’m just not making changes in my life, and I want to.” That might be a place where a coach could step in, like I could step in, and help that person get to that next step. So, they’re both valuable, but it’s very different approaches for helping people achieve their results.

11:03 Cheryl: Yeah, totally. And you know, there are so many different ways that a person can make money online using your own skills and experience and knowledge. But one thing that’s very unique about coaching is that, or one benefit I should say, is that by serving your audience in such a high touch, high accountability, high personalization manner, even the quality of the results that your clients will get will be a lot better than if they were to do it on their own. And because of that, the testimonials that you’ll get in return at the end of your work together will be much better. And your testimonials are very important, especially when you’re building a coaching business because other people want to see that, “Hey, this person can actually help me solve a problem and get me really good results.” And so testimonials are really important for the marketing aspect of your coaching business.

Flexible Working Hours

11:51 Emily: I think another thing that you haven’t necessarily touched on yet, but is another point in favor of coaching as a side hustle, is that it’s very scalable in terms of time. Like you can spend an hour a month coaching if you want to, or you can spend many hours per week and that could be your side hustle. And so, it’s different than, you know, a side job, let’s say where someone else is dictating your schedule and the amount of hours you should work. It’s completely up to you as the business owner to dictate how many hours you’re going to work per period of time.

12:20 Cheryl: Yeah. That’s a really great point because the flexibility of the coach is just incredible because all you really need is wifi and Zoom basically. So, by being able to, basically honestly, you can work from anywhere. You can be a coach anywhere, as long as you have the internet, even the startup costs that you need to start a coaching business are quite low compared to other business models. You don’t need that much tech. You don’t need that much software. You just need Zoom and internet, basically. You can easily package later on if you choose. So, you can package what you’ve taught and coach people on into a digital course, a passive product. But after you gain more experience, after you really pinpoint what are areas that people really struggle with and what are questions that come up over and over again, and you take notes on those issues and challenges that come up, you can easily create a digital course or digital product based on your experiences as a coach. And you can sell that much better, as opposed to just creating a course upfront and not really knowing if it’s going to be able to help people get results.

Mindset Shifts to Start a Coaching Business

13:22 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree. We’re talking to like graduate students, a lot of people and other PhDs, and they might be thinking like, who, “Who am I to be starting to be starting a coaching business, what is this? So, what are some of the mindset shifts that someone in my audience who is sort of intrigued by this idea? What do they might need to work on in their mindset before they’re able to really embark on a coaching business?

13:44 Cheryl: So, you just mentioned basically imposter syndrome: who am I to start a coaching business? And I think that is massive. And I think one other, I guess, belief that goes hand in hand with imposter syndrome is the idea, or basically the fear of judgment. So, what are people going to think if I start a coaching business? So, one perspective shift that I would really like to offer your audience today is to think about who are you trying to work with versus who are the people who might potentially be making judgments about your business? Because ultimately whatever you do in your life, there will be people who are making judgments about you, even if you’re not doing anything. Even if you’re not doing a coaching business, you’ll still receive judgment. So, the question is how much time and concern are you giving to the people who you’re trying to serve versus the people who really aren’t going to become clients in the long run?

14:32 Cheryl: And so, I would really encourage the audience who might be thinking of starting a coaching business to really think about, “Okay, this is a target audience I want to serve and how can I actually get my message and/or work in front of them so that they can see the value of my work?” As opposed to just worrying about what people are going to think, especially those who are really just never going to become fans or supporters of my work, because there’s definitely people who would never really see the value of coaching. So, that means that they’re unlikely to become paying clients or part of your audience. So, if you are really worried about what are people going to think, I would urge you to just to just focus on the impact that you can make and the audience that you want to serve, as opposed to worrying about people whose opinions really have no bearing on you serving that particular audience.

Navigating Imposter Syndrome

15:17 Cheryl: And also, as we mentioned, imposter syndrome. One really easy way to navigate this imposter syndrome is to remember that imposter syndrome really roots from feeling like you’re not credible enough to start this coaching business. But if you just remember that you’re starting a coaching business based off of your preexisting skills and knowledge and experiences, these are things that you’ve already done before, and you’re simply helping other people do the exact same thing. So, if it really is an issue that comes up, one thing that I encourage all of my own clients to do is to start working with people for free first. That way you can actually make sure that you can help people and get them results and not worry about, “Oh my gosh, can I really help people?” But by having actual evidence, concrete evidence that you can get results for other people, you are not only running your business in integrity, but you’re also able to work through that imposter syndrome by seeing that, “You know what, I can do this.”

16:13 Emily: Some people around you might be saying, “Wait, would anyone find value in the coaching that you’re providing?” But like you said, if you actually start working with clients and on a free basis or low-cost basis to begin with, then you can prove to yourself and the people who might be questioning around you, “Oh yes, I do help people get results. Like this is what I’ve done. This is what I’ve helped them do in the past.” You have the receipts basically. Once you start working with people and you can keep track of those testimonials and keep track of their results, that can both encourage you and help you answer to people who are wondering really what you’re doing here.

16:48 Cheryl: Yeah. I love that point. And you know what, very recently, I think about two months ago, I was meeting with an old classmate. So, my classmate said, “Wait, people actually pay you for this?” And I’m not gonna lie, I was pretty taken aback when I heard her say that. Because for many, many months, I’ve been working on my business and I’ve been working with clients and helping them get results. And to suddenly hear someone I used to be friends with question the validity or the legitimacy of my business was really shocking. But then in order to snap back into the swing of things, I reminded myself that, “Hey, you know what, I do have the receipts, just go on my website and you’ll see all these testimonials.” And I remember once again that I have worked with people, I’ve helped them get results.

17:35 Cheryl: And as a result, I’m able to run my business in integrity. And I think that’s really important for people to remember that you are focusing on people that you can actually help as opposed to faking your way into getting clients. Because, as opposed to just signing on every single client that is in sight, really focus on helping people that you can actually help so that imposter syndrome doesn’t come up and you can actually see the clients achieve amazing transformations.

18:01 Emily: Hmm. I totally agree about being selective about the clients that you take on. I think just coaching overall is kind of an unknown industry, or at least maybe among like the academic audience, it might be a little unfamiliar. So, I think the question of like, “People pay you to do that?” I can understand why you’d be a little taken aback by that, but I don’t think it was probably meant in offense, just like, “Oh my gosh, like there’s an industry around people getting paid to do this thing?” But like we were saying earlier, you know, for people who really want that high touch interaction with a coach, then yes. They decide at some point some of them that it is worth it to them and they choose to pay for it. So, it’s the decision of your clients, not the people around you.

Commercial

18:44 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, which I add to every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, a book club, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the Community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

First Steps Toward Starting a Coaching Business

19:47 Emily: Let’s say that we’ve talked someone into, “Okay, I’m going to consider starting a coaching business. I have my area of expertise, my area in mind that I want to coach in.” What are some of the first steps that that person should take towards starting this coaching business?

20:02 Cheryl: So, I would say the first step is really getting clear on what do you want to coach on? And I think that if you want to gain more clarity on that, one of the steps that you can take is to really identify an achievement or a process that you’ve undergone and just map out that process step-by-step. What are the steps that you took or different areas or components that contributed to that final result? So, really just write down what are the different steps or parts of you being able to achieve a certain result or solve a specific problem for yourself.

20:35 Cheryl: And that will become kind of like your framework or methodology that you can walk people through to help them get results as well. Because ultimately, the goal is to be able to help someone through a process that is unique to you and something that you’ve done for yourself as opposed to teaching something that you haven’t really done for yourself. So, I think the first step is to really identify what are the key steps or key areas that have led you to where you are today. And then the next step would be marketing and sales. So, perhaps you can be on social media to share your services, to talk about your program, and to talk about how you’ve been able to get results for yourself. And really just share how excited you are about the program and why this worked for you and why it will work for other people who are struggling with something similar as well.

21:22 Cheryl: And finally, just delivering a really awesome coaching experience for a client. And I think those are the very fundamental steps that people can take when they’re just starting out. I mean, there are so many different things that you can do. You can start a webinar funnel, you can start an email list, you can create a podcast or YouTube channel. There are so many different things you can do to market and promote your coaching program. But I think at the core of it, having clarity on your offer, being able to share insight on your first few clients and also deliver really good results with people. I think that’s the core. The first few steps that people should look into first.

Finding Your First Few Clients and Charging for Coaching

21:55 Emily: I also think that there might be some people in the audience who are a little bit nervous about, you know, you used the word marketing. Like a little bit nervous about kind of putting themselves out there as like this coach in this certain area. You know, you mentioned earlier taking on your first few clients for free. So, I sort of view that as like an exploratory process, both for the coach and the people being coached. The coach is sort of investigating, is this something, you know, like you said earlier, can I provide value? Can I help this person achieve results? Do I like it? What do I think my time is worth? They’re kind of exploring through that process. And then of course you do need to start charging and I would say pretty soon. You know, don’t do that for very long. Can you talk to me about those first few clients? Maybe how to find them and then also the transition between doing that for free and then starting to charge for it.

22:44 Cheryl: Yeah. The interesting thing that I’ve learned about working with people for free is that because they’re not necessarily financially invested in your program, the chances of them staying committed throughout the entire process is not as committed as someone who has actually invested money into your coaching program. So, what I would suggest when you’re finding beta clients is to really be selective about it. So, invite people as opposed to just shouting it from the rooftops and hoping that people will inquire about it. So for example, what I did was actually, I looked at my current audience and I would recall the conversations I had with people and identify two or three people who I think would be a good fit and really fun to work with. And I send them a personalized message and say that, “Hey, this is my goal. I really want to launch this paid program in a few months time. But first I want to make sure that this actually works. So, based on our conversation so far, here’s what we talked about. And I think that this will be a really helpful program for you, and it will be complimentary, it’ll be for free. And in return, I just would really love for feedback and a testimonial if I provided value.” And so that’s how I would go about inviting people to be clients, your first few beta clients, you could say.

Transitioning from Free to Fee-Based Coaching

23:58 Emily: And how about that transition to starting to ask for money? I think that’s a really intimidating one for everyone, self-employed people–especially people who have been cultured by academia to believe that they should be giving away their work for free.

24:14 Cheryl: Yeah, that is a very, very interesting topic to talk about because you know, how I did it was I simply worked with people for free first and got the testimonials. And that just gave me the full-fledged confidence to tell people that, “You know what, here are the results I was able to help people achieve, both internally in terms of mindset and externally in terms of what they’re able to achieve online or for their own personal goals. And here’s why I am so confident in my work.” I think for someone who is starting a coaching business, just being very confident in yourself is something that is very important when it comes to marketing or selling your program. As long as you truly believe that you’re able to get results with people, as long as you truly believe in the impact of your work, I think that that energy can exude and can translate and people can tell. People can really tell when you’re confident in your work. But for someone who might be a little bit nervous about it, what I recommend is, I think pricing is a tricky thing. But what I recommend is just to pick a price that you are comfortable saying and sharing with people and just stick with it. No need to compare your prices with other people. Just pick a price, a number, it’s very arbitrary, to be honest. Just pick a number and then increase from there. As you gain confidence, continue increasing your prices and have it reflect the value of your work.

25:32 Cheryl: So, I think for people who might be nervous for charging, start low and increase as you go, that might be a way to go about it. Of course, please charge. Please charge for your time and the value and impact that you’re going to make for people. But when you’re just starting out, it might be a little trickier. But over time, you’ll recognize the value and impact of your work. And as a result, your prices will go up naturally as well.

Free is Okay at First, But Start Charging Soon

25:57 Emily: Yeah, I definitely agree. Okay. So, what we’re pointing out is, okay, free is okay at first, but put a limit on it. Start charging somewhere, and increase it. Whatever you feel, whatever you think you can say with a straight face, maybe after talking yourself up a little bit, start there and then increase it. I’ll say two quick anecdotes about that. One was from when I started my speaking aspect of my business. I decided to offer a free seminar to three clients. It was based on what was convenient to me geographically. And then I said, “After that, that’s it. I’m done doing things for free, and I’m going to be charging, and this is the price point.” So, I did that. One school turned me down. So, I gave two free seminars, and then I started charging. And in those first few months of starting to pitch myself and telling people about the seminar content and stuff, I was laughed at, and I was told that my prices were not appropriate a couple of different times. But I sort of knew that they were appropriate based on what I’ve learned about the market pricing.

27:00 Emily: And I just kind of had to persevere through that and, you know, ultimately, just a few months later, was able to earn that amount that I had been asking for, and then have increased my prices every year, since then. So, talk with a lot of people, once you’re ready to start charging. Cast a wide net for potential clients, and don’t be discouraged if the first two people you talk to don’t like the price point. That’s okay. Just keep pitching it and keep putting it out there, making sure of course that it’s reasonable for the market that you’re in. So, that’s one anecdote for my business.

27:32 Emily: Another that I’ll relay is Dr. Jen Polk, whose brand is From PhD to Life. She is a career coach specializing in PhDs. And I remember her saying that when she started this, this was probably about 10 years ago, she started doing this. She asked people, her first paying clients, for $10 for an hour of work. And that was the price point. And she is a huge advocate of people increasing their prices and charging what you’re worth and so forth because she did start out with like way, way, way, undervaluing herself right out the gate. And I think she did that for a little longer than she would like, which is why she’s always telling people the advice that we just gave, which is just increase, increase, increase. As you were saying, as you grow in confidence, as your pile of receipts of great testimonials grows and grows.

Origin Story of Cheryl’s Coaching Business

28:17 Emily: So, I totally think your action steps were were wonderful and right on the point. And now I want to get to a little bit more of your story. Out in the front of this interview, we wanted to talk about coaching more generally, but now I want to hear a little bit more about your story. And especially now that you’re starting a PhD program, what your coaching business is going to look like on the side of your graduate work. So, can you tell us more about your story of starting your business?

28:40 Cheryl: All right. So, let’s bring it back to a few years ago when it really started for me through a quarter-life crisis, essentially. So, what had happened was I was actually in law school. I finished my undergrad and I went straight into law school because I was in the mindset of, “Oh my gosh, what a prestigious career.” That was the mentality I had back then. So, I immediately jumped into law school without really thinking about, “Is this a really good personality and career fit for me?” But, you know, lesson learned. But fast forward a year later into law school, I realized this really was just not the right fit for me. I mean, it was very interesting to learn about the law, but being a lawyer is a completely different story. And after my internships, I realized that I just cannot do this. And so I made the very difficult decision to drop out of law school, and this was late 2018.

29:29 Cheryl: And I realized at the time, “Wow, what am I going to do with my life? Essentially, I entered my quarter-life crisis at that point. And I was dabbling in the internet looking at career websites. And I found the term personal branding. And that was very interesting to me. I’ve never heard of the concept before, but I thought, “You know what, let me try to build an online presence. I don’t know where it’s going to go.” So, what I actually ended up doing was creating a YouTube channel to share my experiences about navigating parents’ expectations, making difficult life decisions. The channel does not exist anymore, but what happened was that I was actually building a slow and steady audience on Instagram and YouTube, and people were asking me questions. They were asking me questions about, “Wow, how did you have the confidence to show up online? Like, I really want to share this experience or that experience, but I’m just so scared. Or, “How are you able to grow an audience on social media?”

30:18 Cheryl: And that’s when I realized that, “Oh, wow, I actually have some answers and suggestions and tips. Maybe I can help people on that.” So, what I did first was I actually started working with people for free. And I saw that, “Wow, one of my clients actually was able to get a paying client for her own business.” And that’s when I realized, you know what, I can charge for this. And that’s how my coaching business came about. I officially launched my paid program in March of 2019 and have been charging ever since. And fast forward to today as a PhD student, this is a side hustle for me. And my PhD is my first priority right now, but that said, my side hustle is a large source of income for me compared to my stipend. And just having that extra income, it’s able to help me feel more financially secure. Especially with such uncertain times right now, just having that sense of security is very comforting for me.

31:15 Emily: Absolutely. I don’t know how your stipend is at your university, but there are plenty of places here in the U.S. where graduate students are not paid a living wage, barely paid a living wage. And having a side hustle, especially like we talked about earlier, one where you can immediately start making money trading your time for money can really help you through. Through feeling more financial security, as you were just saying, through being able to, you know, enable some pleasures in your life that you want to pay for, to enable saving. Like there are all different kinds of goals that you might put in place for your side hustle income. So, I’m really glad that you mentioned the financial aspect of this too.

Learn More About Cheryl Theory

31:56 Emily: So, where can people find you online, Cheryl, if they want to learn more about your business and your work?

32:01 Cheryl: Alright. So, I can be found mostly hanging out on Instagram. So, you can find me @cheryltheory. And just for a fun fact, my last name is not theory, but it was simply because all of the variations in the full name was taken. So, I had to pick an Instagram handle name. So, I decided to call my business name Cheryl Theory because back in high school, I thought, “One day I’m going to have my own theory.” So, that was just a running joke for myself. So, I created my business name, my username as Cheryl Theory. And you can also find me at my website, cheryltheory.com.

Best Financial Advice for an Early-Career PhD

32:37 Emily: Perfect. So final question, Cheryl, that I ask all of my guests is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be related to something that we’ve talked about today, or it could be something entirely else.

32:51 Cheryl: Sure. So, I think if I were to tie in a piece of financial advice related to the topic we were talking about today, is starting a coaching business can really bring in an extra source of income that can create so many different opportunities and options for you. But that said, one mistake that I see time and time again when it comes to new coaches, is that they get stuck in consuming information and not actually taking action on it. So, this is more so a business advice as opposed to financial advice, but I think it ties in with your coaching side hustle. So, instead of just waiting for you to feel ready and waiting to listen to another podcast or watching another YouTube video or download another PDF guide, just take action on what you’ve learned in those pieces of content, and actually just move forward. And if you fail, fail fast. And if you have to make tweaks, tweak fast.

33:42 Cheryl: The point of the matter is to take action really quickly and refine as you go so that you can keep moving forward. Because the interesting thing is that rather than having a step-by-step checklist that you can follow, and if you check off all the boxes, you’re going to get the coaching business success. That’s really not how it works, but rather there’s so many different ways that you can make money online. Just find what works for you and commit to it. So, continue taking action and not get stuck in information consumption or analysis paralysis.

34:08 Emily: Thank you so much for joining me Cheryl. This was a great conversation. I really hope that some people in the audience are going to start businesses based on, you know, hearing this. If you do, please let me and Cheryl know. And thank you. Yeah. Thank you again, Cheryl for joining me.

34:23 Cheryl: Thank you for having me.

Outtro

34:24 Emily: Listeners. Thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Best Practices in Side Hustling During Graduate School

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In this episode, Emily interviews Lourdes Bobbio and Meryem Ok, two PhD students who work on this podcast as virtual assistants. Today’s conversation is all about side hustling! Lourdes and Meryem each give their perspectives on why and how they started side hustling, how they manage their time, and how they handle their self-employment income with respect to taxes and budgeting. Throughout the interview, you’ll get a behind-the-scenes perspective on how this podcast is produced. The end of the interview is a discussion of the unexpected benefits Lourdes and Meryem have experience from working on the podcast.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

side hustle grad school

Teaser

00:00 Meryem: Every once in a while, if I need to make an extra purchase or a gift, I will kind of rationalize with myself, “Okay, I was able to make some extra income this month with the side hustle so it’s okay to spend that extra money.” And essentially that’s not a super cut and dry method, but it sort of helps me at least to rationalize my additional expenses and not get too anxious about finances during grad school, which is really, really nice to have that cushion outside of my usual budget.

Introduction

00:36 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast and higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 18 and today my guests are Lourdes Bobbio and Meryem Ok, who are both PhD students and work with me as virtual assistants on this podcast. Today’s conversation is all things side hustling. Lourdes and Meryem each give their perspectives on why and how they started side hustling, how they manage their time, and how they handle their self employment income with respect to taxes and budgeting. Throughout the interview, you’ll get a behind the scenes perspective on how we produce this podcast. We close the interview discussing the unexpected benefits. Lourdes and Meryem have experienced from working on the podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Lourdes Bobbio and Meryem Ok.

Will You Please Introduce Yourselves Further?

01:31 Emily: I’m bringing you a little bit of a different interview today. This is the first time on the PF for PhDs podcast. We have had three people on the call at once, that is two guests interviewees, and it’s really special to me because the people I’m interviewing today are my virtual assistants who work on the podcast with me, Lourdes Bobbio and Meryem Ok, and they’re both PhD students. We’re going to get into more about side hustling today, like the side hustle that they do with me and their experience with that, maybe their experiences side hustling with other people. So yeah, we’re talking side hustling today and I have my two guests with me. I’ll have you introduce yourselves, so Lourdes, why don’t you go first?

02:10 Lourdes: Hi everyone. My name Lourdes Bobbio. I’m a fifth year PhD candidate at Penn State University in the Department of Materials Science, and I work on additive manufacturing of metallic materials.

02:23 Emily: Yeah. Lourdes was actually a guest on a previous podcast episode and we will link that from the show notes. We did a budget breakdown with Lourdes, so we talked through her budget there in State College and Meryem, please introduce yourself.

02:35 Meryem: Hi, my name is Meryem. In 2016 I started the MD PhD program at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill — go Heels. After completing the first two years of med school in 2018, I started my PhD in UNC-NC State’s joint Department of Biomedical Engineering. Currently I am working in the Magnus Lab, developing tools to better understand human intestinal STEM cell fate. And I’m happy to say that I’m officially a PhD candidate as of two days ago.

03:05 Emily: Yes. Congratulations! We will record and release this in August 2020, so it’ll still be fresh news by the time this episode comes out. I’m just delighted to have you both on.

Why Side Hustle In Grad School?

03:17 Emily: First question here is why did you decide to start side hustling in graduate school? Why don’t we still go with Lourdes first?

03:25 Lourdes: Financially, I was doing actually pretty okay with my stipend. As Emily mentioned, I was previously on an episode where I discussed my NDSEG fellowship, and so I generally have a somewhat higher stipend than my peers and State College has a generally low cost of living. So financially I was doing, in terms of I had enough money to live on and for extras and to save, but the reason that I got into side hustling was so that I could have money to contribute to a Roth IRA. I think Emily has done an episode on this earlier in the year, but as of this current year 2020, fellowship recipients are now eligible to contribute to a Roth IRA, but previously they were not. I started one before I was being paid on fellowship and I wanted to try to contribute at least a little bit of money monthly to that, so having that side hustle, self employment income helped me to be able to do that and continue to contribute, even though I couldn’t with my general fellowship income.

04:32 Emily: That’s so strategic. I love that. It is the advice that I was giving out for people who had multi-year fellowships, is to consider that self-employment side hustle. Meryem, why’d you decide to start that side hustling.

04:44 Meryem: For me, I guess coming into medical school, I had actually taken a gap year and was able to transfer a lot of those funds into starting an IRA, so for me, it was less of a strategic approach and more just that I’ve really always had a lot of interests in gaining new skills and collaborating with other people outside of my primary career interests. I think specifically, actually, as far as video and podcast editing, I was inspired by my dad who is always the one recording all of our family memories and making home videos. And he actually founded and produced a public access TV show called Turkish American TV. That’s been going on for 15 years, completely as a passion, volunteer project. I remember many times he’d rope me into his projects and show me how to use video and editing software, and I really just felt lucky to have his guidance. I feel like I inherited his eye for detail since that’s helped me be more confident in marketing myself as a freelancer who just really genuinely enjoys editing. I guess for me, just as someone who needs to have hobbies and tasks outside of work, I wanted to try something new and also make a little extra income in line with my career development goals.

06:03 Emily: Maybe we should say what you all actually do for me with the podcast, to give you credit where credit is due. As the listeners know, I conduct the interviews for the podcast, but kind of everything that happens after that, I hand off to you two. So you do all the video and audio editing of the interviews, and you compile the show notes, which are actually full transcripts. It’s more work than it sounds actually. We use an automated tool to generate the first transcript, but then you go through with a careful listen and make it actually readable, which I really appreciate. And you also write the social media posts that we do for each episode, and you schedule things. There’s a few other tasks in there too, but those are the major pieces of work. It’s been an amazing help for me.

How did you find your current and previous side hustles?

06:44 Emily: I know how you two landed this side hustle, which is that I reached out to my mailing list when my last VA decided to leave the position. Thankfully, she gave me a lot of notice. I reached out to my mailing list and said, “Hey, podcast listeners, do you want to work on the show?” And you two both volunteered to do a trial episode and ultimately your work was great, so I hired both of you. But I don’t know if that’s the first side hustle you’ve had in graduate school, or whether you were even particularly looking for that kind of side hustle, or really how it came about kind of from your end, so why don’t you tell us. Lourdes?

07:19 Lourdes: I had done a couple of side hustles through freelancing websites. There was actually one particular one that was captioning and transcription of usually short audio files through this company called Rev. It’s basically just pick and choose these audio files and you get paid. It’s a very low paying job, but it was something that I did just sort of in my spare time. When I heard about the opening on this podcast, I was like, “Hey, this is perfect. This is like what I was doing before, but on sort of like another level and sort of a next step up.” It seemed like a perfect fit for what I like to do in general anyway, just on a higher level.

08:07 Emily: Yeah. Meryem, how about you?

08:09 Meryem: Yeah, that’s so funny, because actually that’s the first time I’m hearing this. For those who don’t know Lourdes and I actually went to undergrad together, so the fact that we serendipitously ended up as virtual assistants for the same podcast and kind of working together was phenomenal to experience and to find out. For me, I also was trying to look into doing these things independently through similar websites, but it was not really a sustainable effort or something that was really worth the rate that they were paying. And I felt like it’s so much more useful to be able to use these skills and also benefit from all of the knowledge that I’m gaining as I’m editing these episodes, which is relevant to us as graduate students trying to better our personal finances. Really it was a no brainer when I saw that email from Emily and reached out and I’m just so glad that it worked out and that we were able to take turns, Lourdes, and still have an activity shared together despite the distance and the years since college.

09:15 Emily: Yeah, that’s why I reached out to my list first, to try to hire for this position. I hoped that there would be people who would actually be interested in the material as well as having the skill set to work on the episode, instead of going with an independent agency or something, which I could have done, maybe if it hadn’t worked out, initially. I wanted to go to people who I sort of had a relationship with, and actually it happens to be the fact that I had corresponded with both of you over the years before that — we mentioned Lourdes had been on the podcast and Meryem has been on my mailing list for a long time, so we had exchanged emails and I think had call or two in that time. It was really helpful that I knew your names at least, when it came time for people to apply for that position. Meryem you have, since we started working together, taken on another podcast editing position, why don’t you talk about how that came about?

10:08 Meryem: Yeah, that’s right. Actually, I owe it to you, Emily, for alerting me to another side hustle opportunity in podcast editing with the AcaDames podcast, which is another awesome podcast focusing on women in academia. Earlier this year, I remember Emily sent an email to us, letting us know that AcaDames was looking for help since their previous student executive producer was graduating soon, and they wanted to have somebody to overlap during that period of transition. I reached out to them about that position and thankfully we were a good fit. Now I just feel really lucky that I get to work with these two amazing podcasts. My work with them partially involves editing, but also involves a little bit more of administrative and social media management work. I’ve just learned so much from both podcasts and I’m excited to be involved. And also again, benefit from all of the career development advice that I’ve been receiving just by working with both of them.

11:09 Emily: Yeah. I think it’s kind of interesting that for these positions, this podcast virtual assisting position and the AcaDames one, it sounds like we’re looking for someone who’s going to be doing a multiplicity of different things and you come in with maybe some subset of the skills, like Lourdes, you had the transcription type experience, but then we’re asking you to learn a bunch of other stuff which expands your skillset overall, even if you’re not going to be career podcast editors. I assume you’re going to do something with your PhDs, but it’s nice to have that kind of side work, I think.

Balancing Side Hustles, Grad School, and Personal Life

11:36 Emily: Between the side hustle, your graduate work, everything else that’s going on in your life. I know you two are both in relationships — Meryem, you recently got married. Lourdes, you’re engaged. You have a lot of stuff going on in your lives. And so how do you fit in this side work that you’re doing, along with everything else? Lourdes?

11:55 Lourdes: I guess for me, what attracted me to the side hustle specifically was that it’s something that I can work on from home. I don’t have to go anywhere to do anything, and I can kind of fit it into my schedule. It’s very flexible. Emily is super nice, in that she gets us a lot of heads up time between when we get audio files and when they’re going to be released. So there’s a lot of flexibility in the position, which is definitely something that I was initially looking for in side hustles, as well, when I was doing the more freelance, low paying transcription job, it’s something I could do just in my own time, so that’s been helpful in terms of being able to work it into my schedule, work my schedule around it.

12:38 Lourdes: Also, like Emily mentioned, I’m engaged, but for the last year I’ve also been long distance, and so I’ve had a little bit more free time. It’s also been really great during this work from home time, to have something else to do. Now that you’re pretty much primarily at home, we’ve all been at home, things can get a little bit stale, but having a lot of different activities to do has been really helpful in managing my own mental health. I don’t feel like I’m only at home to do work and I get to sort of have some variety in my day, so that’s been nice.

13:22 Emily: How about you Meryem? How do you do the time management aspect?

13:25 Meryem: Yeah, I want to echo everything that Lourdes said. I think it’s really nice, even without a pandemic, but especially during a pandemic, to just have something else to turn to when you need a break from grad school or just want to use a different skill set for a bit, or just kind of escape from the world. And right now, especially because of COVID, I tend to work a later shift in lab, and my understanding is Lourdes does as well, so the rest of our work is pretty much done remotely, which makes it easier, but also I have to be a little bit more diligent about priority setting and setting boundaries, because it is so easy to kind of just switch between projects both between my main job as a grad student and then my side hustles and leaving room for my personal life.

14:07 Meryem: Usually I’ll try to do this by reserving chunks of time to work on the podcast editing, either in the mornings or late in the evenings after my shift and maybe the weekends to kind of catch up, which is very useful for particularly busy weeks. I think just like setting deadlines and trying to stay organized to prioritize all the things that are going on is helpful. I will say that I recognize that it’s probably easier for me to manage everything that I have to do given that I don’t have too many responsibilities outside of my work and extracurriculars right now. I don’t have any human babies, but I do have a fur baby named Sabine, but she’s pretty self sufficient. I think overall it is pretty much managing expectations with myself and now with my husband, but overall I think, much like Lourdes said, you get into a workflow and we do have a lot more time at home so that does help a lot.

15:06 Emily: I’m just thinking how I would answer if I asked this question of myself, of how do I manage my time? Because I do have two human babies and no childcare in a pandemic and it is definitely more challenging now than it was a few months back to be handling my schedule. But I think what Lourdes brought up initially, the fact that in our schedule we have basically a two week cycle from when I get the raw interview to you two and then we have a two week process before publication, and Ithink that really helps. I know a lot of side hustle jobs are really quick turnaround, like super short deadlines, and it’s not even really so much on your end, like I’m giving you guys a lot of time. I need a lot of time to do my part of the process as well, because I can’t necessarily jump on a response right away, because it’s just a busy long day every day right now.

Commercial

16:00 Emily: Hey, social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15 minute call with me at PFforPhDs.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time, I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now back to our interview.

Budgeting Side Hustle Income

16:46 Emily: Okay, so personal financial show — let’s talk about the money that’s associated with the side hustle income. What are you doing with the money from your income? Does it have a particular job to do in your budget or how are you handling it generally? Lourdes, why don’t you go first?

17:01 Lourdes: In general, I put most of my side hustle income into savings, whether that be more long-term savings or shorter term savings, kind of depends. If I have an upcoming trip, it might go a little bit towards that. In general, how I work my budget is that, I pay myself first, in that I put money aside for savings first, and then any money leftover is my money that I get to spend for the month.

17:31 Lourdes: One of the tips I learned from the first episodes I edited was a side hustle episode, I think it was Allie Judge, and she mentioned how she holds off on paying herself her side hustle income until the month after she’s earned it. So sort of working on a delayed schedule, in terms of using the money that she’s earned. After I heard that, I’m like, that’s a great idea, so ever since then, I’ve been doing the same thing, where I count basically any money I earn in August goes towards my September monthly budget. That helps me in terms of planning and not using the money before I’ve actually earned it. That’s how I mainly handle it in terms of budgeting.

18:22 Emily: Yeah. Thank you. Meryem, how does it work in your budget?

18:26 Meryem: I’ll be totally transparent in that I don’t necessarily have a specific allocation for my side hustle income, because for me it was primarily a chance to essentially have a hobby and use a different skillset. But I kind of do try to visualize it in a way that permits me to have those extra side expenses during the course of the month that you might not otherwise be able to do. For me, it’s kind of a mental exercise, and I do have the money go straight into a savings account that I don’t really touch, but every once in a while, if I need to kind of make an extra purchase or a gift, I will kind of, I guess, rationalize with myself like, okay, I was able to make some extra income this month with the side hustle, so it’s okay to spend that extra money and think of my extra purchases outside of my needs in terms of how much of my work and effort that is worth. And essentially that’s not a super cut and dry method, but it helps me at least to rationalize my additional expenses and not get too anxious about finances during grad school, which is really, really nice to have that cushion outside of my usual budget.

19:41 Emily: Yeah. That trick, that mental framework of translating the cost of a purchase into your time, or maybe number of episodes, or however you want to structure it, is a really powerful one, a really common one for people sort of were advanced in their personal finance skills to think about really carefully, like whether they want to make a purchase and how they want to spend and so forth to translate into time. That’s a really good tip.

20:07 Emily: I’m particularly thinking about this question of how to handle your irregular income with respect to your budget because, so in August 2020, I launched a community PFforPhDs.com/community, if you want to find out more about that, but every month I’m creating new content for it. Right now I’m working on the September content, which is on how do you handle your irregular income with respect to your budget?

20:28 Emily: Lourdes, the tip that you gave is basically the first one that I’ve already put into this, which is count up your income from one month and put it towards the next month budget, that you got from Allie. It’s absolutely perfect, because you never know when something could go wrong with your side-hustle income. Like if one of you became ill, for example, maybe you need to skip an episode. That’s not a problem for us, but it would be a problem for your budget if you’d already spent the money that you expected to come in. That’s number one, baseline tip for handling side hustle income is give it a delay. Meryem, you’re doing a similar thing by putting it directly into savings, and then later on thinking about, well, how do I want to spend it, or do I want to keep it here? Different articulation, but kind of the same principle there. I’m really glad to hear that.

Side Hustle Income and Taxes

21:13 Emily: Now we come to one of my favorite subjects within personal finance, which is taxes. So you two are both self-employed, you are contractors for me, and Meryem, now you have this other contractor, essentially you’re like a real true contractor working for multiple people with the same skillset. Self employment taxes are kind of a whole other ball of wax. You’ve been doing this for a year, do you have any systems that you’ve put in place or just what are you doing with it, with respect to your taxes? Lourdes?

21:40 Lourdes: For me, it’s a little bit of two different things. I generally set aside about 30% of my self employment income for taxes. That’s taking into account the about 15% self employment tax and then income tax being around 12%. But also, I am on a fellowship that requires me to pay estimated taxes quarterly, and so at the beginning of every year, I basically estimate how much — well, I know how much I’m going to earn from my fellowship, and then I basically estimated how much I anticipate earning from doing this virtual assistant for the podcast. Basically, I have ahead of time, I know how much I have to set aside each month for both my fellowship income and this side hustle income. I immediately put that into savings and I just don’t touch that money. It’s not even money that I think about. And then I tend to over save just a little bit in terms of taxes, just because I’d rather have a cushion. Last year, I think I was off by like $150 just because of other things. I also have some investments that will change throughout the year and change my tax situation, but I do tend to oversave just so I have that little extra cushion and I don’t have to take it out of other pockets of my savings. Then if I have extra money left over, I kind of use it as my own personal tax refund. So the government isn’t giving me any, but I have some extra money left over in my tax pot. I use that and just reallocate it usually to different savings categories.

23:23 Emily: Yeah. I handle my income from my business exactly the same way, so it sounds like you’re just incorporating the self employment tax issue into your existing structure for paying quarterly estimated tax. Meryem, I want to give you a chance to answer that one as well, because I know this is shifting for you right now,

23:39 Meryem: Actually I’m absorbing all of Lourdes’ tips because for me, I just, in the month also started receiving fellowship non-W-2 income. Prior to that, I wasn’t really thinking about estimated quarterly taxes as much because I didn’t have to deal with all of that. But now moving forward for tax year 2020 into next year, I will have to kind of be thinking about that. Even though the actual amount of taxes that I’ll from the side hustle income will be less than the amount that is necessary to be able to pay estimated quarterly taxes — so my original strategy was just to collect all of the receipts that I’ll receive from PayPal and then make sure that I back calculate the amount that I have to pay for the self employment tax and pay that come tax season. That original plan is fine if you know that you’re not going to owe the amount that you would need to, to not have to pay fees for not paying estimated quarterly taxes, but I like the strategy of kind of building it in so that by the time tax season does roll around, you’ve already paid everything.

24:45 Meryem: I actually think that I’m going to adopt that policy rather than shifting it and waiting until tax season. And as for my other side hustle with AcaDames, their structure is also changing since they’re recently going through the process of incorporating and becoming an LLC. Previously, and currently during the transition, I’m being paid through W2 income because it’s very easy to me to be able to do that as a UNC student and the cohost, or at least one of the coasts now is based at UNC, so it was really easy to deal with that through payroll and not have to worry about freelancing or independent contracting. But I imagine that that will also shift within the next year as they’re making this transition into becoming an LLC. So having all of these strategies in place now will probably be really useful moving forward.

25:38 Emily: Yeah, that’s good for me to know. Interesting. I should mention also, I just brought up the Personal Finance for PhDs Community, but for the last several years, I’ve had a workshop available for individuals on quarterly estimated tax and helping them fill out their estimated tax worksheet and form 1040. That workshop is now coming under the umbrella of the community. So anyone who’s wondering about how do I file quarterly estimated tax on my fellowship, that’s where to go for that particular workshop PFforPhSs.com/community. And I just told you, I’m thinking about in September, the training that I’m going to release on handling your irregular income with respect to your budget. Later on this fall, I’m planning on doing another full workshop on the self-employment side hustle that is so common for graduate students and PhDs, and how to handle that for your taxes, so a whole other tax workshop just on this topic of self employment taxes. That’ll be available if anyone needs help with that sort of thing. I’m really excited about creating because I’ve been doing my own taxes as a self employed person for a number of years, so I have a basic familiarity with it and I’m excited to do a bit more research to figure out how it works for other kinds of businesses as well. That’s where to find out more info there.

Unexpected Benefits from Side Hustling

26:54 Emily: As a second to last question here, have there been any benefits to doing a side hustle that you didn’t anticipate when you first took on the position? Lourdes?

27:05 Lourdes: Specifically for this podcast, Emily interviews a wide range of guests and a lot of them also have social media that they promote. I’ve been able to connect with some of the different guests on social media, just as a result of sometimes promoting the episode. They’ll see that I promote it, and then we connect, we end up talking, following each other on Twitter. That’s been like something I didn’t really expect to happen, but it’s been really cool because q lot of them are fellow grad students, and then just getting into that academic sphere of Twitter has been really interesting just to see all these different graduate experiences from people all over the country and all over the world. That’s been one of the most unanticipated benefit from this particular side hustle.

27:57 Lourdes: And then also, as has been brought up multiple times, I think Meryem brought this up, just learning a different skillset that’s something very different from what I do in my normal day to day graduate work. And I, in particular, am starting to figure out what I want to do after grad school. I’m a fifth year student going into my sixth year, so I’ve been leaning towards maybe some more like alt-academic jobs, and being able to have this completely different skill set is definitely something that I think adds to my resume and adds to potential job options and sort of also gives me ideas of what other type of work is out there. Along with what I was mentioning before Emily does have so many different types of guests on the podcast, just seeing what opportunities are available to graduate students after they’ve defended and after they graduated, has been really interesting and something that I hadn’t even considered or even thought of prior to really getting to know some of these guests through the podcast.

29:04 Emily: Yeah. That’s really great for me to hear. I know that this too was an unexpected benefit for me of doing the podcast is I didn’t expect it to be such good networking. I knew some things that would happen from it, but not the networking aspect, so I’m really glad that you’ve been able to tap into that as well. So Meryem, how about you?

29:24 Meryem: Yeah, I agree completely with the networking component as this amazing side benefit of being involved with editing the podcast. And I think for me also, I just find it inspiring how relevant the episodes have been in my own personal journey as a student, often in real time. In fact, I’ll never forget that the very first trial episode that I edited was with Dr. Katie Wedemeyer-Strombel about her decision to change labs and how to prepare for the unexpected in grad school. And it just so happened that that exact same week that I was editing that episode, my former PhD advisor surprised that our lab with an announcement that she would be leaving UNC and moving across the country, and all of this was happening while I was trying to plan a wedding with my fiance, and now husband, who had just moved down to Chapel Hill to start a new job, to be with me after we’d been long distance for so many years. And anyways, it ended up working out and I was able to switch into an amazing collaborating lab and stay at UNC, but unbeknownst to Katie, her advice at that time was so timely for me and helpful for me as I was going through that transition. So I always rave about the podcast to pretty much every grad student I come across and I try to send along helpful episodes and resources to them if it sort of just happens to come across in conversation. It’s just amazing to me how many times that, that has just happened, where I’m editing an episode and realizing, wait, I really need to pay attention. This is really relevant to my life right now.

31:00 Emily: That’s really good to hear. Of course you told me at the time that that episode was striking you in that way and I’m so glad that I could help. I think that, as Lourdes, as I was saying earlier, I’ve been doing this podcast for about two years now and I have quite a few interviews under my belt and it’s not always the same type of person, as you were saying. It’s a lot of different kinds of personal finance stories coming from a lot of different sorts of people who have been in academia for a time at least. There is a good trove of episodes there, that you might find something useful to your current situation, if you do a little diving into the archives.

Best Financial Advice for Early Career PhDs

31:34 Emily: Last question here, which, you know, I ask of pretty much all the guests who come on the podcast. I’ll give you a chance to give your answers as well. What is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And we’ll go to Lourdes first again.

31:48 Lourdes: For me, I think one of the best things for me is having a yearly budget. At the beginning of the year, and I’ve been doing this for quite a few years now, I lay out my plan for the year financially on a spreadsheet, and it really helps to be able to see a longer term plan for my money for the year. I think, especially with self employment income, side hustling, it kind of gives you an idea of…Maybe I have a trip planned later in the year, or I have some big event that I’m going to need to save up money for, and being able to more strategically allocate your money on a larger scale rather than just month to month. I think that’s been one of like a strategy that I’ve been employing for a couple of years now, and it’s just been super helpful for me, and it’s something that I will see myself doing like far into the future

32:44 Emily: That is, I think, typically a good piece of advice, but I want to know how it’s going in 2020.

32:50 Lourdes: It’s been interesting to say the least. There have been a lot of…I had some trips planned that have gotten canceled, so I have this extra money, but also different expenses that I didn’t anticipate come up. And it’s been a little bit of am eye-opener in terms of plans change as the year goes on, but I think sort of having that framework to begin with helps me realize that even if…I go back to this budget every month, it’s the same spreadsheet I use for my monthly budgeting, so it changes and updates and it’s a very fluid document, but just having that outline there to begin with has also been something that provides some structure, especially when the year got so different than what everyone anticipated.

33:43 Emily: Yeah, I also use the year as the sort of standard timeframe when I talk about irregular expenses, so expenses that come up non monthly, and you and I talked about this in our interview from a year or so ago. I think it’s a great strategy to think about what budgetarily is coming up for you — trips, as you mentioned earlier, or maybe some other kinds of irregular expenses, so you can anticipate them over the course of about a year. So yeah, I like that time frame as well. Meryem, how about you? What’s your best advice?

34:12 Meryem: Yeah, so my best advice is probably to be honest with yourself and keep an open mind about your personal finances. A wise friend once told me that disappointment happens when our expectations don’t match up with our reality, which was really helpful for me to hear at the time, as an optimist, because I used to feel a lot of guilt or disappointment if I couldn’t maintain an unrealistic budget, or if I couldn’t resist making an impulse purchase on something that maybe wasn’t necessary, but made me or someone else really happy. But I also think it’s really important for our mental and physical wellbeing to work towards a healthy relationship with money, which I know can be particularly challenging on a grad student’s stipend. So with that in mind still, I think as best as you can try to be honest with yourself and set realistic goals for yourself, not based on anybody else’s priorities or spending habits, but whatever matches your needs. That being said, if something really isn’t working for you, that’s probably a good time to have an open mind and try to adapt, effective strategies from others. I guess I would say it’s okay to experiment and even take calculated risks, while figuring out what works best for you, but being honest yourself and keeping an open mind is probably my best financial advice and general life advice as well.

35:44 Emily: I love that as well. I often think about the mismatch between expectations and reality, and how that provokes us, so I try to keep my expectations low, basically. I really love that advice and I think that’s unique. I don’t think we’ve heard that on the podcast before, but I think it’s perfect. And something that graduate students can sometimes be discouraged around their finances because they are working with such a low income, it’s for such a long period of time, and I talk a lot about investing and saving stuff and that’s just out of reach for a lot of graduate students, but they can implement your advice, Meryem. They can like learn to just figure out what’s going to work for them in managing their own finances right now and carry that skill set and that habit, whatever it is that they determined as the right system or whatever, forward into their career and post-PhD income, and hopefully have a lot of financial success at that time, having been honest with themselves and really using the time in graduate school to get to know what their preferences are with respect to managing their finances. That’s good advice for anybody, anytime. You can always implement it.

36:46 Emily: I’m so glad to have had you two on the podcast and thank you so much for volunteering to do this. Thanks for coming on.

36:53 Lourdes: Thank you, Emily.

36:54 Meryem: Thanks Emily.

Outtro

36:56 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.