Financial Goals

What Happens When Personal Finance Education Becomes Your Hobby

January 11, 2021 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily interviews Laura Frater, a first-year PhD student at the University of California at Davis. Laura grew up in a low-income family in Scotland and first came to the US a few years ago for a master’s degree. She went from having “zero financial literacy” at that time to being highly engaged with her finances now, and even considers personal finance education to be her hobby! Laura details the top seven tips for financial success that she has implemented over the last few years, including one just for international students. She continues to discover new strategies and experiment with her finances.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

Teaser

00:00 Laura: You don’t have to sort of wait to be an adult to do those things. Like you are an adult already in grad school, and you can do other things that adults do with their money for sure.

Introduction

00:14 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season eight, episode two, and my guest today is Laura Frater, a first-year PhD student at the University of California at Davis. Laura grew up in a low-income family in Scotland and first came to the U.S. a few years ago for a master’s degree. She went from having zero financial literacy at that time to being highly engaged with her finances now and even considers personal finance education to be her hobby. Laura details the top seven tips for financial success that she has implemented over the last few years, including one just for international students. She continues to discover new strategies and experiment with her finances. For season eight of the podcast, I’ve shifted up the format. There are two new short segments, one before, and one after the interview. I hope this new format will encourage more interactions between me and you, the listener.

01:17 Emily: January is always an exciting month for Personal Finance for PhDs. First, it’s a brand new year, so a lot of people have a heightened interest in personal finance at this time. They want to start budgeting, increase their savings, open IRAs, et cetera, and I love that energy. Second, tax season has started. I rarely file my own tax return before April 15th, but I’ve learned that a lot of people file in January to get their tax refunds ASAP. Therefore, I’ve already kicked off my tax support for your 2020 return, which you heard about in last week’s episode. Third, I view January as the start of admissions season for PhD programs. Although, I know some people receive acceptances even earlier. So, it’s a thrilling and hopeful time of year for prospective graduate students, and a perfect time of year for them to connect with my material.

02:10 Emily: If you would like to learn more about personal finance and want a friendly environment in which to ask questions and discuss topics, including all of the ones I just mentioned, please consider joining the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.com/community. If you know that you want support in accomplishing a big financial goal this spring, I recommend my group coaching program, The Wealthy PhD. You and I will meet one-on-one to identify and plot a course toward a big financial goal. Past participants have opened IRAs, set up systems of targeted savings, started budgeting, and systematically implemented frugal tactics. Every week for eight weeks, you will participate in a small accountability group that I facilitate that will keep you on track to meet small weekly goals. The next round of The Wealthy PhD starts in mid-February, and enrollment is open now. Visit pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD to learn more.

Book Giveaway Contest

03:12 Emily: Now, onto one of the two new segments, the book giveaway contest. In January 2021, I’m giving away one copy of The House Hacking Strategy by Craig Curelop, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for March 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during January will have a chance to win a copy of this book. I’m super enthused for my audience to learn about house hacking, which is when you buy a home, live in it, and rent out part of it, thereby radically reducing or even eliminating your housing expense. In fact, I’m bringing back a special guest from the past to discuss the strategy with me in an episode that will be published at the end of January. We’re going to tell you how even a grad student in certain housing markets can apply the principles explained in this book. And certainly, it’s even more viable if you have post-PhD income. If you’d like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at [email protected]. I’ll choose a winner at the end of January, from all the entries. You can find full instructions at pfforphds.com/podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Laura Frater.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:29 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Laura Frater. She is a first-year PhD student at UC Davis, and she’s going to be kind of telling us the arc of her financial story, starting as international student, and now, you know, in her PhD. And she has a great story to tell. And she’s going to be specifically telling us a few different strategies that she’s used, seven different strategies she’s used, in the course of this time to kind of get her financial life in order and now going into a PhD program. So Laura, it’s really a pleasure to have you on thank you so much for volunteering. And would you please, you know, tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

05:10 Laura: Yeah, sure. So, my name is Laura and I just turned 29. I am originally from Scotland. I was born and raised in Glasgow and I moved to the U.S. when I was 25. So, it’s been about four years. I originally came to do my Master’s in English in New York city. And after four years of being there for very long years, I moved to Oakland, California with my husband about three months ago. So yeah, I’m still settling in and learning how to finally manage my money properly with my brand new graduate stipend, which is exciting.

Funding Journey Over the Past Four Years

05:43 Emily: Great. And so just to get a little bit more detail there, was your master’s funded? Were you paying for yourself? What were the financials during that period?

05:51 Laura: Yeah. Good question. So, I was there as an international student but it was a private school, so I had a full scholarship. I had all my tuition paid for, and then I had a fairly modest bi-weekly stipend over the course of two years. So, obviously it wasn’t a lot of money, but it kind of paid for things like travel. And my now-husband was a rock star and he took care of things like rent. So, I was definitely in a very fortunate situation overall.

06:21 Emily: And did you finish your master’s within those two funded years? And what did you do for the next two years? We’re talking about a four-year period, right?

06:28 Laura: Yeah. Four years. So the first two years, yeah, I started 2016, finished 2018. And then I went onto what’s called the OPT visa, which is like a temporary work visa for international students. So I spent about a year working on that visa, and long story cut short, I got married and applied for my green card and became a permanent resident last year.

06:53 Emily: Okay, gotcha. So, I wanted to give the listeners as well, a flavor of like your current financials. So, you came to the U.S. What was your financial life at that time, and what are you doing now? Like sort of where are you now? And then we’ll talk about, you know, how did you get from point A to point B? So, you know, what was point A, what’s point B like?

07:11 Laura: Yeah, well, point A was just a total lack of awareness with money. So, I really, I didn’t really grow up with any financial literacy, and I grew up in a very, just like a low-income household, basically. So, money was just always associated with stress and limitations. So, I didn’t have any knowledge about managing it effectively. So I would, I tended to, you know, pay for everything I needed to pay for. And then I would try and like hoard all my money and save everything, but that’s just not realistic. So, it was kind of a mess. And when I was not able to work last year waiting for my green card, I just made a huge point to learn about finances and become as aware as possible about every dollar and where it was going. So, today it’s just much more about engagement and seeing it as a way to feel more free, basically. As free as you can be in graduate school.

Financial Strategy #1: 50-30-20 Rule

08:08 Emily: Okay. So, it’s really been a lot of like sort of mindset evolution then during that period of time. And it sounds like you went about it also very intentionally, at least for a period last year. So, let’s dive into the strategies then. You have six strategies that will be sort of applicable to hopefully anybody and then one that’s particular for international students. So, we’ll talk through each one of these. So, first strategy, what is it?

08:31 Laura: Okay, so this is something I definitely picked up listening to your podcast. So, knowing exactly where your money’s going and what the goal of those segments of money actually is. Again, this is something I learned from you was just the 50, 30, 20 rule. So, 50% goes towards everything you need to pay every month, like rent and utilities, and then 30% is for your wants–things that you want to spend money on–and then 20% towards your savings goals. So, just having those goals clearly outlined has been the biggest thing.

09:04 Emily: Yeah. I definitely like that touch point, which is why you’ve heard it from me before, but I’m curious how it struck you living in New York and now living in California. Because sometimes it’s really hard to hear that living in a high cost-of-living area.

09:17 Laura: Yeah, it’s definitely challenging. And I should definitely preface this by saying that, you know, being married, I share my expenses with somebody, so I have a benefit in that sense, for sure. We talk about our money really openly and we both stay within that 50, 30, 20 limit. So, we really talked about the kind of lifestyle that we could number one afford, and then, okay. So, were we willing to make certain sacrifices to live where we ideally wanted to live? So yeah, we probably spent about a month deciding on, you know, where we wanted to live, the cost of the apartment, did we want a car. All those kinds of things. And yeah, we definitely live, we live in Oakland, so it’s very expensive, but it’s a trade-off. We’ve had to be at peace with that choice.

Impact of Location and Commute

10:05 Emily: And let me, I’ll just ask also, so you’re living in Oakland, but you’re going to UC Davis, and those are not the same city. So, is there like, are you commuting or is it different now because maybe you’re remote or what’s going on with like your choice of location?

10:19 Laura: Yeah. So everything is online at Davis until next year. So, our lease in Oakland ends October, 2021. So, we definitely have the option to go closer to Davis if we want. But honestly, my schedule is very flexible and I only have to be up there twice a week, on average, if I was going up there. So, I don’t anticipate us moving somewhere cheaper so that I can be closer to Davis. My husband works in tech, so he has to be in San Francisco. So it’s really, we have to prioritize how much he has to commute, because that would be like an everyday occurrence almost for him.

10:56 Emily: Gotcha. Well, we’ll see how all of this evolves. You know, we’re recording this interview in November, 2020, and the future is very uncertain. I guess you at least know when your remote period will definitely go until, if not maybe further. Yeah. So, we’ll see how that goes. Anything else you want to say about that? The strategy of like, of budgeting and balancing?

11:17 Laura: I mean, I think you just have to like, not be afraid of the numbers and, you know, we really sat down, especially with the rent. Coming from Manhattan, we thought there’s no way it can be more expensive than Manhattan. And it was. So, you know, this is down to my husband’s great sales skills. He really haggled with the building and got us a really good deal. I wish I could give advice on how to do that, but I don’t. You might be better to interview him for that. So, we got about 12 weeks off of our rent. So, three months of this year we don’t pay for, and we managed to get free parking in our building as well for a little bit. So, negotiation skills is probably my next financial education to-do list point.

Financial Strategy #2: Side Hustles

12:01 Emily: Yeah, that’s incredible. And I think that’s both, it’s just good to know that it’s possible and some people are successful with it. Even if you don’t know, like particularly the script that he used or whatever, you can look up those kinds of things. But I am thinking that, you know, being in San Francisco adjacent kind of area, and also during COVID times, you know, the willingness to negotiate on behalf of the company that’s running the building or whatever is probably increased. So, it’s worth trying whenever, but I suspect your success rates are going to be higher now than they will be a year or two from now or whatever. Okay. So, what is strategy number two?

12:38 Laura: So, number two is something, again, that you’ve talked about a lot is side hustles. So, I’d always aimed to find a side hustle during grad school. You kind of have to. But, I ideally wanted something that was remote during this weird time. So, I was lucky to get, it’s a grading job with UT Austin. So, you’re basically grading papers for this program that they do for high school students who are taking college-level composition classes. And I’m not totally sure how I feel about it yet. It’s definitely a lot of work for the money that you make. So, that’s something to probably think about. You know, maybe have a goal in mind in terms of how much money you want to make off of your side hustle, how much you need to make, and then decide whether that side hustle is the best fit for you. So, I’m going to do it for a few more months and see what else is out there. But I would never say no to even like a little bit extra money in the week on those stipends. So yeah, definitely go for a side hustle if you can.

13:37 Emily: Yeah. So, I do want to note that you’re saying that you did the side hustle post-getting your green card, because you’re not allowed to have an income that you are working for as an international student. So this is only for, you know, people who are citizens or residents and also even a subgroup within that of people who are not going to be risking their funding by pursuing a side hustle or, you know, their relationship with their advisor or whatever. So, it sounds like the kind of the one that you chose is probably quite flexible. Maybe the pay is not great for the hours, but you can fit it in around the other things that you’re doing.

Flexibility and Fellowships

14:09 Laura: Yeah, totally. It’s definitely very flexible and yeah, that’s a good point. I’m on a fellowship. So, I cannot work at UC Davis or any of the UC campuses, but I’m allowed to work anywhere else off those campuses. So, this was actually recommended to me by UC Davis and I felt pretty confident going into it that it was, you know, a good space in which to work. So, yeah, I think keeping an eye on how much I’m probably making per hour, given how much work I’m doing for them. And I love the job itself. I just want to be careful that I’m not giving too much of my time for, you know, a really low rate of money. So, that’s something to definitely be aware of.

14:48 Emily: Yeah. I’m really glad that UC Davis actually gave you that clarity around what the policy was, because I don’t know that that’s actually that common. So like, here’s what’s not allowed, here’s what it is allowed. Oh, recommendations for what, you know, what work you might do. I know I had a side hustle that was doing editing for journal articles for a while after I finished my PhD. And I similarly had to be really conscious and sort of suppress my like perfectionist tendencies, because I was just like, for the rate that I’m being paid, I need to be very careful how much time I spend per paper. And like, yeah, maybe I’m just going to get it 90% of the way there. That’s okay. That’s good enough. And not, you know, toil over every like last detail. So, yeah. Great tip to be conscious about that. Anything else you wanted to add about side hustling?

15:32 Laura: So, one thing I am doing right now is I’m almost a qualified yoga teacher. So, that is something I really want to pursue. And I don’t know enough about setting up my own business yet and things like that. You obviously want to make sure that you’re not, you know, you want to be paying taxes and things like that. That’s really important. But the yoga stuff is just something I love to do. And I started becoming a teacher actually during COVID. Like right at the beginning, there was a really great online course. So things like that, you know, try and make those side hustles fit in with your schedule. Don’t be like missing time on studying just to make money if you can avoid it. So yeah, just looking for flexibility and not being exploited is the most important thing, I think.

16:15 Emily: Totally agree with both of those. And I’ll also add, I really like that you are just experimenting with things. You know, like you aren’t holding onto like, what’s exactly the most perfect thing, and that’s the only thing that’s going to be acceptable. Or you don’t have these limiting beliefs around, I’m not allowed to do anything. I can’t do anything. I can’t fit it in, I don’t have time, I’m not allowed. Yeah, you’re just trying things out and I think that’s a great approach.

16:36 Laura: Yeah. It’s definitely fun. And you know, again, podcasts like yours, you know, finding out from other people what they’re doing. It doesn’t have to be a conventional, probably pretty dull side hustle. Like, you know, try and enjoy your life as much as possible because I think these years only get more intense as you keep going with the PhD. So, try and do something that is good for your soul as well as your bank account.

Financial Strategy #3: Check Your Bank Account Regularly

16:58 Emily: Yeah, that sounds good. Okay. Let’s talk about your third strategy.

17:03 Laura: Yes. So, I think just checking your bank account every single day is, it seems like the most simple advice, but something that I never used to do. I would just, you know, live in denial and not check it for days at a time. So, like take advantage of the apps from your bank. Like they need to be good for something. So, have it on your phone, check it every day. And I also try and look at the last five to six transactions. And I try and work out, are there any patterns in my spending? Are there things that I’m wasting money on? But that also helps you figure out what you actually enjoy spending your money on in the first place, so you can be prepared for it. And it also will just show up any kind of like random transactions that were maybe incorrect, which actually do happen. Like you think that they won’t, but they definitely do.

17:51 Emily: I have an example of that actually, that I was looking at our, my husband, I share a Mint account. I was looking at it the other day, and I saw a charge from Amazon Music for like $15. And I was like, Hmm, husband, did you subscribe to Amazon music without discussing that with me? And he goes, Oh, no, like weirdly my phone was like freezing up and I thought I tapped something and then I wasn’t sure. And so anyway, it was a total mistake that he, you know, accidentally subscribed and, and he, you know, he talked with them and he got it reversed and it was totally fine. But if we had gone a month or two without like catching that, or if it had just gone into the, you know, swept away with all the other transactions, then, Hey, you’re out $15 every single month. Not just one time.

18:32 Laura: Yeah. It’s a lot of money. I mean, also like looking for those free trials that you forget to cancel. Happened to me twice this month. I was so embarrassed because I pride myself on not letting that happen, but Microsoft charged me 75 bucks, which, you know, I would have gotten that free through Davis and I forgot that I paid for last year, and Hulu as well. So yeah, we still have it for one more month, but not worth it at all.

Monitoring Short-Term Savings Goals

18:56 Emily: So, what else do you get out of the particular strategy of checking every single day? Like, are you, I mean, you mentioned finding patterns in your spending, which I think is super valuable. What else are you getting out of that practice?

19:09 Laura: I think the other thing right now that I’m getting out of it is checking on my short-term savings goals, which I’ve actually established, which is really great and has lowered my anxiety. Also like looking for avoiding any bank fees, which are really, really tricky, especially with someone like Wells Fargo, who we can talk about that later, maybe, but like that bank is terrible about those fees. Checking for example, how many times I’ve used my debit card to make sure that I avoid the monthly fee. Things like that, that I never really did before. It’s just another way to be as fully engaged as possible with my spending.

Financial Strategy #4: Make Financial Education a Hobby

19:47 Emily: Alright. So, what’s your fourth strategy?

19:49 Laura: Fourth is just making your financial education a hobby. I guess that’s the best word to describe it. I used to view finances and the education around it with a lot of fear and anxiety, but finding fun ways to learn about it has really changed my life in so many ways. For example, your podcast. I’ll go for a walk by my apartment. I’ll go running, I’ll go to the gym. And I just pick an episode and then I, you know, listen to it and I make notes on it afterwards, normally. Getting an audio book is a really good idea as well. Going on YouTube and just sifting through different people’s videos. There’s definitely some weird people out there for sure. So you can, you can judge that as you, as you figure your way through it. But just making your education a part of your lifestyle, I think is really important.

20:37 Emily: Yeah. I definitely also went down this road with when I was sort of getting, I had been learning about personal finance through reading some books and stuff, but then when I got a little bit interested and more engaged, I was reading about a lot online and like starting to connect with bloggers and then I started blogging myself. So, there was like a community, you know, developing online around it. And I definitely would call that my hobby at that time, which of course has since become my business. But at the time it was just a fun thing I was doing like, you know, wake up, like check my email and like check my like feed for, you know, what the new blog posts are. And I really liked having that perspective from other people. I think those communities have moved more towards like Reddit and YouTube now.

21:17 Emily: It’s not so much like blogging. I mean, people still do that, but it’s not quite as huge as it was at that time. But just finding like a way that you like to consume information, like you were just saying, like audio works really well for you. Obviously, I love podcasts. So, audio works for me too. Finding a way you’d like to consume information and then a few people maybe like on whatever medium that is that you like to follow. There’s a big personal finance community on YouTube now, I know. So, if that’s your thing, like you could definitely find, you know, great influences there. And yeah, I think books still have their place for sure. And if audio books can do well, or if you have the time and capacity to read, then that’s perfect too.

Commercial

21:54 Emily: Emily here for brief interlude. Taxes are weirdly unexpectedly difficult for funded grad students and fellowship recipients at any level of PhD training. Your university might send you strange tax forms or no tax forms at all. They might not withhold your income tax from your paychecks, even though you owe it. It’s a mess. I’ve created a ton of free resources to assist you with understanding and preparing your 2020 tax return, which are available at pfforphds.com/tax. I hope you’ll check them out to ease much of the stress of tax season. If you want to go deeper with the material or have a question for me, please join one of my tax workshops, which you can find links to from PF F O R P H D S.com/T A X. The first live Q&A call for my workshop on preparing your 2020 PhD tax return is this Sunday, January 17th. Also, for those of you who are paid by fellowship or training grant, the deadline to make your quarter four estimated tax payment is January 15th. If you’re not going to file your tax return by the end of January. It would be my pleasure to help you save time and potentially money this tax season. So, don’t hesitate to reach out. Now, back to our interview.

Financial Strategy #5: Decide What Makes Your Life Rich

23:21 Emily: So, what is the fifth strategy on your list?

23:24 Laura: The fifth one is actually from a really good book called I Will Teach You To Be Rich, which was actually the audio book that I just downloaded. And one of the questions, gosh, the author’s name I’ve totally blanked on.

23:36 Emily: It’s Ramit Sethi.

23:38 Laura: So, yes. He’s really great. And I wasn’t super sure about the title at first. I thought it was maybe like a little bit crass, but he has some really good advice including sit down and decide what makes your life rich. And that doesn’t mean in terms of how much money you have for retirement or how much money you have on the day-to-day, but what do you really value and what do you enjoy spending your money on? So, that was something that I kind of made my husband and I sit down and talk about. You know, like what are our individual, you know, finance goals and our joint ones as a couple in the next five, 10 years. Like where do we want to live? Like what kind of life do we want to have for ourselves? And it’s not just helped us plan our savings more appropriately, but it’s also alleviated my personal guilt when I see like what I’m spending money on. For example, I love eating out. Like I never did it growing up and I love doing it now. And that’s part of what makes my life personally rich. So, it just helps you, I think, feel less shame if you’re spending things and you’re initially worried that it’s not appropriate. But if that’s what you value, then you should enjoy it if you can afford it.

24:46 Emily: Yeah. I think Ramit’s voice is a very unique one in the personal finance space, because he does have this emphasis on, you know, spend extravagantly on the things that are really important to you and increase your income so that you can support that. And do not worry about like, cut spending in the areas that are not important to you. I was just actually listening to him as a guest on another podcast a couple of days ago. And I think he said something like, you know, he drives a super old car still and he like, there are some areas of his life that he really does not spend on, but there are a few that he’s identified they’re really important where he spends lavishly. And so that’s, I think it is a really good perspective for someone who is like you were talking about earlier, like sort of afraid to spend money or like hoarding money that like, I can definitely see how that message could help you with your own money mindset.

25:38 Emily: I Will Teach You To Be Rich actually came up earlier on the podcast and we’ll link it from the show notes. We did an interview with Dr. Amanda and she talks about how that book in particular, when it was first published like 10 years ago or whatever totally turned her like money life around. That was like the sort of inception of her money, her financial journey. So, if you want to hear another perspective on, you know, how that book’s helped someone else, that’ll be linked from the show notes. Yes.

In Other Words: What Are Your Values?

26:05 Emily: So, another way of like saying this, like figure out what makes your life rich thing, which is a little bit more like classic financial planning, is what are your values? What is important to you? You also mentioned identifying goals. And I think it’s a wonderful process. Not, you know, not a lot of graduate students might get into this because they feel like they’re more on the survival level. But what I like about this exercise of figuring out what’s really important to you, what really makes you happy, what really makes you feel satisfied, is that there are sometimes ways that you can find a way to fulfill those values that don’t involve spending. And that’s okay. Like for instance, you know, you said earlier that you’ve been trained to become a yoga teacher. So, maybe, I’m guessing, physical health and mental health and balance and things like that are important to you. And it doesn’t take a lot of money to have a yoga practice, right? So, there are ways to find fulfillment, even if you aren’t able to spend right now. But then later, you know, when your income is higher, post-PhD, you can maybe think of ways that you could spend and even enhance that more later, but still find some ways to do it now and fit it into your life right now. Instead of just sort of saying to yourself, I can never do anything. I can never spend anything. I can never afford anything because of my stipend right now. And just sort of shutting all of that down.

27:19 Laura: Totally. Yeah. And I think that’s something as a cohort when you’re in your PhD program, like you should definitely talk about that with other people. Because the attitude, at least from what I witnessed, is like, everyone’s scared about their money. But you’re totally right. If you sit down and think about what brings a particular richness to your life. But when I did it, I realized, Oh, wow, I do yoga. I love hiking. I love going for walks. Like I’m such an old lady that way. So it’s like, I have all these things already there for free. And it just helps you feel, it gives you perspective on your money. It’s, you know, you don’t have a lot right now, but that’s okay because X, Y, and Z doesn’t cost me anything.

Financial Strategy #6: Talk to Your Partner About Money

27:55 Emily: Well, it’s a wonderful point. Thank you so much for expanding on that one. Sixth strategy. What’s that one?

28:02 Laura: So, the sixth is to anyone in a relationship. Talk to your partner about money. It’s not something you talk about the first couple of years, probably, when you’re on your first dates. But I mean, my husband and I have been together for almost nine years, married for just over a year. And you know, he’s so good with money and he has such a natural interest and I have such a fear of it normally that we’re kind of a perfect match that way. But the more we’ve talked about it, the more our relationship has improved, the better our goals are with our spending. There’s no awkwardness about things that we’re both buying. We do also keep, you know, separation there, which I think is healthy. I don’t know everything that he’s spending his money on, but we both know exactly how much the other person makes every month. We both know our bills when they’re due and if there’s any kind of more extravagant purchases that we’re both thinking of having as individuals, we do run them past the other, because it’s just a respectful little gesture. So, just making it a not scary thing. Just talk about it with your partner. The worst thing is to keep it a secret, for sure.

29:10 Emily: It sounds like you two have found like a balance. You have transparency but you also have a degree of autonomy. So, no secrets, anything that needs to be flagged as brought to the other person’s attention, but the decisions are still ultimately your own individually for certain aspects of your spending. And obviously certain aspects you have to come to an agreement. I did a pretty interesting podcast interview recently with Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts where we talked about joint and separate finances.

29:40 Laura: Yes. I listened to that.

Financial Strategy #7: Learn About U.S. Credit Card Culture

29:42 Emily: Cool. Yeah. So, I’ll link that in the show notes, in case people want to follow up on like, okay, well, what is the money management system that might work well for me? And you can certainly hear, you know, Michelle and I discuss our respective systems, which are somewhat different and somewhat similar. I think that your last strategy is specific to international students. So, will you share that one please?

30:00 Laura: Yeah. So this one, I so wish I’d known before I moved here, but better late than never. Learn about credit card culture in the USA, because it’s not going away and you will be all the better for accepting it. And I know it’s not always possible on a student visa to get a proper credit card. That was the problem I ran into, but they will give you something like a credit card from certain banks, and it will be a way to transition into an adult credit card, so to speak. I just got my first credit card. I’m not ashamed to admit it. So if anyone else out there is thinking, Oh gosh, I don’t even have one yet. It’s okay. Like better to just go and do it. But I just had so many questions about them because growing up in Scotland, we were always told don’t get a credit card. It’s, you know, it’s because you’re a failure financially, if you need to get one. But here it’s a very valuable thing to have a good credit history. So, learn about it as soon as you can, and go to your bank and just ask a ton of questions. And do not leave until you know the answer to all of them. Because they’ll try and just brush you off most of the time.

31:08 Emily: So, the credit card culture that you were just mentioning. It’s so closely held for me. I was taking a second, like, what do you mean by this? What is this culture? So, what you’re saying is like the importance of credit, like your credit score, your having good credit reports and so forth is not just for when you want to get a mortgage or when you want to take out a car loan or whatever. It can be checked by landlords. It can even be checked by employers in some cases. And so it’s like, yeah, weirdly important to have a really good credit or, you know, a decent to good credit score. And it doesn’t mean, like you were just saying, that you’re necessarily in debt or, you know, taking out lots of debt, or that you’re in a need or anything like that.

31:50 Emily: But yeah, it is it’s pretty weird and it’s pretty insidious that other kinds of payments are not reported on your credit report. Like, Hey, I pay my rent every month. Shouldn’t that count for something? And it’s also weird that your income doesn’t factor into your credit score. So, it’s a very strange system. I agree. And so, okay. So, I understand. So you had to understand what was going on with the U.S. system and kind of accept that, yes, you did need to establish a credit score. These are the steps to do, you know, get a secured card, later on, get a regular credit card once you have a credit score, and then kind of work it up from there. Is that right?

32:26 Laura: Yeah, totally. And again, like I was in a very privileged position because my husband has a credit score. But again, I didn’t know that to get an apartment, for example, in New York, even with his credit score, which is really solid, it was still a challenge. Like you got to wait until it’s processed. There are a lot of questions afterwards as well. So, just establishing that, the sooner the better. It will lift your anxiety about it and it, unfortunately it just will give you more freedom down the line. So, I would start off really small. You know, I just got my credit card and I’m only allowing myself to use it for certain expenses in the month so I can practice using it appropriately. So, just figure out how to use it properly and stick to the rules. And I think you should be good to go.

Credit Cards Can Intimidate Anyone

33:12 Emily: I’ll actually like add in, even for, you know, people have grown up in the U.S. or whatever. Like, I also was very afraid of getting my first credit card, which thankfully I don’t know how, because I was very ignorant at the time, but thankfully I did not sign up for any credit cards during my undergraduate degree. So, I got through all of that with only, you know, I had student loans and so I actually had a credit score, but I didn’t have any credit cards. Thankfully. And by the time, I don’t know, I had just been like warned so strenuously about the dangers of credit cards that I was very, very nervous to get one for the first time. But like you, I was reading about how important it is to build credit. And this is, you know, an easy way to do it without actually paying interest on anything, which is also nice.

33:52 Emily: So, I like very carefully picked out my first credit card, very reluctantly, like signed up for it, used it very infrequently. And, you know, have still maintained that account to this day because it’s my oldest account. So, it’s definitely not just international students who can be kind of like perplexed and nervous about this whole system. It’s a little bit easier, of course, if you did go to college in the U.S. and you did take off student loans because you will have a credit score, even if you have never made a payment on student loans or anything like that. It’ll actually probably be a decent, I don’t know. It’s so weird. It’s such a weird system.

34:26 Laura: It’s so weird. Yeah. I mean one last thing I would say is just when they give you those documents at the bank with all the terms and conditions. It’s very tempting to just put it in an envelope and not look at it again. I have a whole box, actually in my office right now, and I’ve gone through the whole thing with a highlighter. And I asked my husband the definitions for things. I search online. I called the bank twice more because I wanted to confirm something. Like, ignorance is just not bliss. You just, you need to know what exactly you signed up for to really feel confident about it.

Benefits of Reflecting on Your Money Mindset

34:55 Emily: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for adding that. I know that a lot of international students I think hear this advice of open up a secured credit card when you get to the U.S. But I think a lot of them will kind of find some kinship with you in your like trepidation about this. And what exactly is this about and what are the attitudes? So, yeah. Thank you so much for adding that. So, what are the benefits that you’ve experienced from going through this, you know, this process and reflecting on your money mindset that you grew up with and putting all these strategies in place. Obviously, I’m assuming your hard numbers of your financials are looking rosier than they would have if you hadn’t gone through this process. But is there anything else that you want to add about benefits aside from the, you know, the black and white?

35:38 Laura: Yeah. I think that the biggest benefit is just, you know, getting out of this mindset as a grad student that you can’t have any savings goals. That was the big misconception that I had. You know, once you learn, for example, what an emergency fund is, what a Roth IRA is, all these little things. You realize, Oh, wait, it is possible to save for the future. Yeah. It’s not going to be as much as someone working as a lawyer or whatever, but it’s going to add up over the five, six years that you are on this smaller stipend. So, you know, it gives you a lot of hope and I think the mental health during graduate school, that’s something you have to be aware of. And putting aside, you know, a couple of hundred dollars a month to your Roth IRA, for example, that’s a great feeling. And that’s, you know, one of my goals that I have by the spring. You don’t have to sort of wait to be an adult to do those things. Like you are an adult already in grad school, and you can, you can do other things that adults do with their money for sure.

36:35 Emily: Yeah. I also, very coincidentally, I gave an interview this morning for Roostervane, which is Dr. Chris Cornthwaite’s brand. And I was talking about this as well, the mindset of really that label of being a student. It makes sense in a context, but it can really trip you up and mess you up, like in your mindset, because I think, you know, at least in the U.S., you know, for traditional college students, we’ve kind of accepted that it’s an extended adolescence period of time until you graduate from college and it’s okay to be dependent on your parents. And, you know, you may be still not really working on your finances because, Hey, you’re probably taking out a bunch of debt. We’ve kind of accepted that. And then when that student label gets applied to funded PhD students, there’s really a disconnect. And it’s much healthier, as you were just saying, to not really make that student like the closest part of your identity, but recognize that you are an adult, you need to have a well-rounded life, you know, financially healthwise, in your relationships, all these other areas. It’s not really feasible for you to kind of suppress and ignore various different facets of your life for the length of a PhD, which is very long.

37:42 Laura: No. Yeah, I completely agree. And also, I do understand the anxiety of the student label, right? But at the same time, you do have to kind of wake up to the fact that people are actually offering you money from a lot of different resources. Like, especially at Davis, where they are excellent at emailing us with fellowships and funding, money here and there. You do have to be proactive about it. You know, it’s still very hard and it’s stressful, but for example, go through your emails every month. And if you’ve missed anything with free money, put it in a spreadsheet like I’ve been doing. It does add up after a while and you realize, Oh, wait, year two, I can apply for, you know, $2,000 here for this. It doesn’t have to be so limited for the entire time.

38:26 Emily: Yeah. It’s kind of funny because I think in some ways earning more money while you’re a graduate student is like frowned upon in certain corners of academia or even not allowed as we talked about earlier. But there are other ways where earning more money is like completely sanctioned and encouraged by everyone which is applying for fellowships and applying for grants and doing all these like academia-style, like raises and like, you know, the things that we would use different terms for it outside of academia, but inside it’s still allowed and still a good idea. And like you were saying, some programs are pretty good about, you know, showing those opportunities to you and presenting them in a way that’s easy for you to take advantage of. So yeah, that’s wonderful to hear.

Best Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

39:04 Emily: So, I’d like to conclude with your best advice for another early career PhD. I feel like we’ve already heard a ton of great advice throughout the whole interview, but if there’s anything you want to add to that in a different area or something you want to emphasize, make sure the listeners walk away with, you know, please let us know.

39:20 Laura: Yeah. I mean, just, I think two things. My main points of advice would be to just make your financial education, or whatever you want to call it, a hobby. The more you know, the less anxiety you’re going to feel. And don’t think that saving for things like retirement or long-term savings goals have to be put on pause. It’s better to have a little bit saved towards that kind of goal than to have nothing in five years. So, the longterm does not have to be on a permanent pause by any means.

39:48 Emily: Yeah. And even, as you know, from compound interest, any little tiny bit of investing or debt repayment that you can do right now makes a massive difference later on. So, you know, don’t feel bad if it’s like $10 a month, $50 per month. Anything on that scale is still going to really, really add up over time. Well, thank you so much for this wonderful interview, Laura. I really enjoyed getting to know you a little bit.

40:09 Laura: Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. This was really fun.

Listener Q&A: Savings

40:16 Emily: Now, on to the second of two new segments. The listener question and answer. Today’s question actually comes from a survey I sent out in advance of one of my university webinars this past fall. So, it is anonymous. Here is the question. How can I effectively build my savings back up while still feeling like I have room to go out to dinner or buy a book when I’d like to? I feel so guilty whenever I make unnecessary purchases. Thank you so much for that question, Anonymous. It sounds like your main financial goal right now is to build up savings. And you’re struggling to find a way to balance that with discretionary expenses. And you might hear this as a strange solution, but I think the answer is budgeting. Most people think of budgeting as a way to cut back on their expenses or reduce their expenses or beat themselves up when they go over the amount they were supposed to spend in one category or another.

41:17 Emily: But that’s actually not how I see budgeting. I see budgeting as a method of intentionally and thoughtfully creating balance among the different purposes that your money has. So, what I think you should do is write into your budget “unnecessary purchases,” like going out to dinner and buying a book. And in this sense, these are not categories that you should, you know, try to spend much, much less than the cap. Your goal is instead going to spend right at that level that you identified when you set up the budget. This means that you have to decide what is an adequate savings rate. There are not just two broad categories in your budget, that is paying for your necessary expenses and saving. There are three. Necessary expenses, discretionary expenses, and saving. I’ll point you to the balanced money formula, which I really like the idea behind, although I have to acknowledge that it does not work in every city in the U.S. on any grad student stipend. The balanced money formula is that you would devote no more than 50% of your after-tax income to necessary expenses, 30% to discretionary expenses and 20% to savings.

42:31 Emily: Now, for your budget, that savings rate might be a little bit too low, or it might be unattainable, depends on where you are right now. But the point is that discretionary expenses hold a place in a balanced budget. It is really psychologically difficult to go for months and years spending little to no money on discretionary purchases. If you accept what I’m saying, that you need to build discretionary expenses into your budget, but you’re still saying to yourself, I’m not saving as much as I would like to, instead of cutting back on those discretionary expenses, I want you to take a really hard look at your necessary expenses. Necessary expenses are almost like this misnomer because, yes, it is necessary to house yourself and feed yourself and clothe yourself. But often we’re spending more than we absolutely baseline need to, to accomplish those things. So, for pretty much every quote, unquote, necessary expense, there’s going to be an actual necessary portion, and a discretionary portion.

43:34 Emily: So, I would really encourage you to go through your necessary expenses with a fine-tooth comb, starting with your largest fixed expenses like housing, perhaps transportation, moving to other fixed expenses like utilities. Then moving into your large necessary expenses like groceries. Then moving into your smaller necessary expenses, like maybe gas for your car. Reevaluate every single one of those expenses in that order to try to find a way that you can reduce them. Now, that may not happen instantaneously, if you have to do something like move, obviously. But the point is that you don’t just have to focus on your discretionary expenses and your savings. You can also pay some attention to those necessary expenses. In my mind, it’s way more fun to save money and also to spend on discretionary expenses. Spending on necessary expenses doesn’t really light people up. So, it definitely makes sense to reevaluate them and see where you can cut back.

44:34 Emily: Now, if you’ve done all of that, you’ve built the discretionary expenses into your budget. You’ve really evaluated if you can reduce any of your necessary expenses, and your savings rate is still not as high as you want it to be, then you need to consider increasing your income. Maybe that is the right solution. Some grad students are able and allowed to side hustle. So, you can look into that, if that’s your case. Some grad students are not allowed to work outside their appointment as a graduate student. And so in those cases, you might have to look for side incomes that don’t require work to generate them. I’ve talked about this quite a bit on my site. You can search for a side income or side hustle to find more discussion about that. Okay, Anonymous. I hope this helped. It is legitimate to spend money on discretionary or quote unnecessary purchases.

45:22 Emily: Absolutely. It’s just a matter of finding the right balance between your savings, your discretionary expenses, and your necessary expenses. And oftentimes, the two culprits in those areas are your necessary expenses and your income being too low. I hope that helps. Thank you so much for submitting this question. If you would like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to pfforphds.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions. So, please submit yours.

Outtro

45:53 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly on social media with an email listserv or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing debt, repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Working Before Starting a PhD: The Financial and Career Advantages

November 9, 2020 by Emily

In this episode, Emily interviews Diandra from That Science Couple, a PhD student in nutrition at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. Diandra went straight from undergrad into a funded master’s program, then worked for six years before starting a PhD program. She lists the career and financial advantages to working before embarking on a PhD—and the disadvantages. Diandra and her husband are currently pursing SlowFI (Slow Financial Independence) while she is in her PhD program, and she gives excellent financial advice at the conclusion of the interview.

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Links Mentioned in the Interview

Teaser

00:00 Diandra: I said that I never want to retire because I love research. And then I kind of shifted to, well, if money’s not the determining factor in the position that I choose, then we can spend more time with family. We can travel more and be open to different opportunities so that maybe money is more of a tool rather than a requirement. And if I want to donate my time to work on some really awesome, amazing lifestyle research that maybe doesn’t have much money in the budget to pay me, then I can choose to do that.

Introduction

00:40 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode 10, and today my guest is Diandra from That Science Couple, a PhD student in nutrition at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. Diandra went straight from undergrad into a funded master’s program, then worked for six years before starting a PhD program. She lists the career and financial advantages to working before embarking on a PhD. And the disadvantages. Diandra and her husband are currently pursuing slow financial independence while she is in her PhD program. And she gives excellent financial advice at the conclusion of the interview. This interview came about because I noticed That Science Couple tweeting about financial independence. I checked out Diandra and her husband’s website and noticed that she is a PhD student. So I decided to invite her on the podcast. It turns out that Diandra is a long-time listener of this podcast.

01:41 Emily: I literally did not know that until just before we started our interview. So I have a message for other long-time or short-time listeners, i.e., you. I am actively looking for interviewees right now. If you have personal finance knowledge or a skill that you want to teach through an interview, I would love to have you on. It’s absolutely fine if you gained this knowledge or skill from personal experience. So don’t shy away from volunteering because I use the word teach. Go to pfforphds.com/podcast to volunteer to be interviewed. Do not make me hunt you down on Twitter. Also, if you would like to hear me interview a particular person on the podcast and can help me make that connection, please send us both an email or tag us on Twitter. I’m actually looking for interviewees who can speak to two topics in particular. One, the proper tax treatment of travel and research grants. Two, exactly what kinds of income-generating activities are and are not permissible on F1 and J1 visas. If you know a professional who works in either of those areas in the U.S., please email me that recommendation. I hope to feature many of you on this podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Diandra from That Science Couple.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:57 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today Diandra from That Science Couple, and I was so pleased to run across her and her brand on Twitter, that’s where I found her, to find another science couple like me and my husband, who are passionate about personal finance. So Diandra, it’s a real pleasure to have you on today. Would you please introduce yourself a bit further to the listeners?

03:18 Diandra: Okay. Thank you, Emily, for having me today. I’m a long-time listener to the podcast. I actually listened before I got into my PhD program. So that was a bonus. And my name is Diandra and I’m a second-year student, PhD student, at the University of Wisconsin-Madison in nutritional sciences. I have a Master’s in Cell and Molecular Biology from Towson University. And before I started my PhD program, I worked in the industry from technician to scientist in the field of late-stage cancer diagnostics for six years. I’ve held five positions at four different companies over the six years and met my future husband, Brad from That Science Couple, at one of them. Each move was growth and financially motivated. And I’d like to say that it all started with a simple 1% cost of living increase.

Career Advantages of Working Before School

04:02 Emily: Wow. Okay. Very fascinating. So I heard in that description that you had a pretty big change in fields between what your master’s was in, what you worked in, in industry, and then what your PhD is in. So maybe we’ll get into a little bit why that happened. Because the topic that we’re going to discuss today is that path that you took between your master’s degree and your PhD and what the advantages are of working for at least a year or two years, few years, before you start a PhD program. The financial advantages, the career advantages. So let’s dive into that. You obviously have experience in this area, but you’ve probably also observed peers as well. So what are the career advantages that you perceive for working for at least some period of time between, you know, the first round of training, whether that’s undergrad, whether that’s a master’s, and then embarking on the PhD program?

04:52 Diandra: All right. So one of the big career advantages that I noted was that you’re able to test the waters. So you can gain experience before committing that five or more years to a program. And you can also determine what you don’t want in a career rather than like, focusing on what you wanted. So as you go through, you might identify different work environments that don’t click with you or ones that you like really do like, and that can help you channel your focus for your PhD program and what career you would want after that. You also are able to learn about the business side of things. You could go through different phases to take a project from beginning to completion. You work in diverse teams. So I specifically had worked in several different companies, and that collaboration either with inside my company, or to other branches, was very valuable, I think as well.

05:47 Diandra: It also trained me how to have proper documentation. So this is very useful for a PhD program. A lot of the beginning part of work for my program right now is all acquiring samples and making sure that we have good QC metrics and that we’re starting from a level basis for all of our samples. And then also I learned a realistic view on the cost of research. So I did a lot of ordering with my jobs, and then I could see what it would take to run the samples, how many times, what you needed for different replicates and then including like the final, like analysis cost as well at the end. So I think that was really important to get a realistic view of what a project I could propose in the future might cost.

06:34 Diandra: Also, another career advantage is that I was able to network early. So when you work in the industry, every time I changed jobs, I would go on LinkedIn and I would request my coworkers so that I could follow them after I had moved on. And they became references for my future applications. I gave several of them references as well. And then I also gained new mentors through working before going into my PhD. And they’re spread across a variety of fields. So now when I come back from my PhD, I’ll be able to see where they are and then potentially choose a path that maybe they’re already on or they switched to during the meantime. And then, also, I believe that I bring something unique to my PhD from working in the industry. It definitely helped me to improve my PhD application because I had a series of projects that I completed. Products that I helped launch. So that was something that I was able to include. And then I acquired additional skill sets, knowledge, and problem solving. And I’m definitely a lot more confident this time around, and I have more life experience. So when they throw a curve ball at you, or there’s an issue with your dissertation, then I’ve already been through so many times when we’ve had to switch projects or stop in the middle and change course and correct from there.

Projected Future Career Advantages, Post-PhD

07:55 Emily: So clearly there are advantages to you as the future PhD applicant, like having a stronger application, once you do decide to go for those kinds of programs. There are advantages to you in terms of knowing what you want out of your own career, whether or not a PhD is going to fit in that, and what you want to do after the PhD. And so you’ve described what you’ve experienced so far as, you know, your path to getting into the PhD program. I wonder if you can project forward, what are going to be the advantages of having worked prior to doing the PhD, once you’re looking for your first post-PhD position. What do you imagine will be the advantages then?

08:33 Diandra: Yeah. So one of the advantages then is that I already have this network built in. So I’ve tried to collaborate potentially with like my former colleagues and so far it hasn’t gone through. But when I’m looking towards the future, there are potentials that if I was a PI, that I could actually collaborate with them more. So it being like across industry is a good connection to have. So they can give you a discount on your study as long as you’re willing to share the information. So I think that’s a big proponent and I already have some of my former colleagues that are keeping in touch with me now and seeing like where I am. So I know that they’re vested in me and that if I were to say, “Hey, I need to start a team.” I have several people who have already told me, you know, “Just let me know when and where.” And they would be willing to make the leap and come join me potentially in the future.

Financial Advantages to Working Before the PhD

09:31 Emily: Wow, that’s fantastic. I also think that it takes a variable out of the equation for your future employers of, can this person be successful in my setting, an industry setting and not just an academic setting. And that question has already been answered, especially for like you had maybe a longer period of work experience, not just like a year or two. That’s already been well demonstrated for you. Okay. So we’ve covered the career advantages. This is not a career podcast. This is a financial podcast. So what are the financial advantages to working prior to starting a PhD program?

10:05 Diandra: Okay. So this was a big one for us because it took a lot of thought into, you know, why go back when I’m already established in my field, right? So it will make a big impact on you financially. And so I think the basis is just knowing what you’re getting into. Knowing that you’re going to have a few years of low income, but you can weigh that versus the potential future gains. So originally the program that I was thinking I wanted to go into would have given me a similar skillset and would not have provided any leverage up in comparison to where I already was. But then this past year, as I was developing and choosing which lab I wanted to go into, I was able to identify like, look, this is a gap in my knowledge, this is a skill that I don’t have.

10:53 Diandra: So if I add this, and it was data analysis, so if I add data analysis, then I can be potentially location-independent. I can also add this as like potentially a part-time job as well. So I could do research and then do data analysis on the side. So it’s a side hustle potential as well. So, it brought a lot of additional motivation to the PhD that I’m not going to just go out and make the same money that I was making before, but I can actually leverage that further in the future.

How Did Finances During Work Help with the PhD Transition?

11:26 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. I’m also thinking about, you know, let’s say traditional PhD student, you know, straight out of undergrad, straight of a master’s degree, early twenties, not a lot of capital, maybe a lot of student loan debt. What were you able to do in your finances in those years when you worked that helped you once you transitioned into the PhD program?

11:49 Diandra: Yeah, that’s a great question. So financially I didn’t have any student loan debt because my parents paid for my bachelor’s degree, which was great. And then when I got my master’s, I said, I’m only going to do it if they pay me to do it because I wasn’t quite sold on the need for it yet. And it was just at a transition point where I had an opportunity to stay on as a master’s student with my current research, my undergrad research. So it just kind of flowed right through. And I was able to get a TA position that covered it and then paid a small stipend. So I wasn’t able to pay off any, you know, credit card debt or things like that during that time. But once I started working, I was able to over the years level that out.

12:34 Diandra: So I had $5,000 of debt that I had to level out. And then Brad had also had some minor student loans that he was able to pay off during that time. So we go from a negative net worth of, you know, five, 10,000 to a positive net worth. And starting to open that 401k was a turning point for me because I had always started saving cash. And I had this number, this like specific amount that I could always get to my bank account. And then something big would happen. Like I would have a car repair or I would have a medical expense or something like that. And then I would have to, you know, bring it down again and start over in the savings. So working helped me to start investing earlier in comparison to some of my counterparts that are in the PhD program with me now.

13:28 Diandra: And I have that capital there that can grow during my program. So I was able to open a 401k, an HSA, which was very crucial. So I don’t have a ton in there since I was using it as I was contributing. But it’s been able to sustain me so far. And I’m hoping that after my program, that it will either still be there or it will have just covered all my medical expenses during the program. So I don’t have to worry, which is really, really useful. And then I’ve also started a Roth. So I’ve been able to do that post-tax money as well, that I will be able to access earlier. So if we choose to be, FI [financially independent], take time off you know, work remotely, or try to do more traveling, then I’ll have that money that I’ll be able to access since I’ve already paid the taxes on it.

14:22 Emily: Yeah. I call being able to start investing, and/or pay down debt, before you start graduate school. I call it having a financial wind at your back, right? Like if you just get that little nest egg started right at the beginning of graduate school before graduate school, and then you take whatever five plus years for your PhD training, even if you don’t add any more money to that, it’s something that it can be growing alongside you as that time passes. So it’s fantastic to be able to have that.

Common Objections to Working Before Grad School

14:50 Emily: Something I hear from people who are debating with themselves about going directly from undergrad into graduate school, debating with themselves about that versus working for a while. I hear two things. One is I’m going to get used to my financial lifestyle on my industry salary, and then it’s going to be too hard to live on a PhD stipend. So I should just go directly and never have that, like lifestyle intermediary. That’s one potential downside or whatever. The other one is that they’re concerned that their academic abilities, basically their ability to do school well, is going to deteriorate if they’re working for more than a year or two. How do you feel about those two objections?

15:36 Diandra: Yeah. Okay. So the first one, the financial aspect. I do agree. It can be really easy to get swept up in there. So I think for us, like the turning point was that we didn’t want to start like putting off our future. So we wanted to start traveling now and we didn’t want to say, “Oh, when we’re 65. That’s when we’ll start traveling.” So what we did initially was, when we started dating, moved into this nice apartment together, started saving for our first international vacation. And then when it came time to renew the release, it was going to go up. And we said, look, we can either do the vacation when we planned, or we can live in this nice apartment. And we looked at each other and I was like, I don’t want to live here. I would rather have the adventure that we planned than live in just a nice, shiny apartment that I can’t afford to have parties because I spent all my money on rent.

16:37 Diandra: So that kind of got us to stop with the lifestyle inflation. To cut back early on. And then we did back to back three years in a row, we did international trips for our birthdays and then just for the summer. So it was really nice. Like each one was only two weeks at a time, but instead of paying that extra to the nice, shiny things, we decided to pay it towards experiences. So I think if you were to work, you can still do that. But then like, what are your values? Like, does your spending align with your values? So if you value having a nice house for your children to grow up in, then that’s fine. But if you value adventure, then you don’t need to spend as much on your rent. So I think that that can be can be difficult to go up against like financially and having that inflation. But also every time I got raises, I pretended like I was still making the money that I was making in my master’s. So of course it was slightly more. But what I did was I took that extra when I got the raise, when I, the bonus and I put that into my savings and my investments, and I said, “I don’t want to see that money at all.” So I had that mindset that like, I’m still living on this fixed income, and no, I don’t have the extra to spend.

18:03 Emily: Yeah. I think that’s it’s a particular application of the advice live like a college student, live like a grad student, live like a resident, which is, if you are anticipating a future income decrease live on that future income. This is the same advice you hear, like people who are, for example, going to buy a house. Well, can you live on the mortgage payment that you’re going to make in the future? You know, is that possible for you in your budget? So like sort of projecting to your future, live on what that is, so that you make the adjustments in advance instead of having a real sudden, real abrupt, real painful lifestyle decrease when you enter, you know, something like graduate school. So I really liked that you took that approach of especially keeping your living expenses, your fixed expenses, on the lower side as if you were still a graduate student or will again be a graduate student. And saving the increase and also spending it on experiences. Because it’s not really lifestyle inflation, unless I guess those experiences become habitual for you.

Commercial

19:01 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. On Saturday, November 14th, 2020, I’m facilitating a new workshop: Chart Your Course to Financial Success, and you’re invited to attend. The central question this workshop will help you answer is, What should my singular financial goal be right now, and how should I best pursue it? This particular instance of the workshop is just for funded grad students. Future dates will be for post-docs and PhDs with real jobs. You can learn more and sign up at pfforphds.com/chart. That’s P F F O R P H D S.com slash C H A R T. The deadline to register is Wednesday, November 11th. So don’t delay. Now, back to the interview.

Financial Independence and Early Retirement (FIRE)

19:46 Emily: You discovered FIRE, it sounds like, in your time in industry. Financial Independence and Early Retirement. How is that pursued, or how are the principles still carrying on for you in graduate school?

19:58 Diandra: Yeah, so our basis going into graduate school was very important to see where we are and what we still need to do to get to potentially FIRE, or if not, just financial independence. So individually my husband and I are both 25% of the way towards our FI numbers. So that’s good. It means we have money that can grow. And then while I’m in my program, we’re working on our savings in two different ways. So instead of me trying to do everything and him trying to do it all separately, my focus is more on the post-tax money. So I make sure to pay myself first, every paycheck. And I have 25% of my stipend that will go in towards savings and individual investments. And then I also have another 10% that goes into a 457, and I’m treating this as a Roth account.

20:53 Diandra: So I’m paying the taxes now while I’m in a lower tax bracket in comparison to what I expect to be when I graduate. And then, so what Brad is doing is the kind of opposite. So he’s focusing on the pre-tax savings. So he’s also a university employee, but not a graduate student currently. So he’s been able to ramp up his savings and utilize a 457, 403(b), and HSA. And then while he has a moderate salary, he’s living on a similar income to me. So everything above that, instead of inflating our lifestyle, he’s saving that additional amount.

How Do You Have Access to a 457?

21:33 Emily: I was surprised to hear that you have access to a 457. How do you have access to that?

21:40 Diandra: So I have access to that through the UW system. So I actually didn’t know I had access to it in the first year of my PhD program. So I was doing like those micro investing apps. And then like, I would randomly put money into my individual retirement account, my IRA. So when Brad had gotten a job with the University, he saw all the benefits and explored it fully. And then he’s like, so I’m looking at these details. And it says that, aAt UW, that graduate students are considered employees. So since we had that label, we do have access to a 457. And I was able to go through and say, I could have it pre-tax, or it could have it post-tax. But since I know that I want to work for a few years, at least once I graduate, I’ll be in a higher tax bracket then. And so I’d rather pay the taxes now. So the whole point of it is that maybe we can get together funds that the whole first five years, when you become FI and you leave work is, it’s really hard to access your funds. So if you do like a Roth conversion ladder, that takes five years. So my aim was, what can I do now to build that initial five-year cash cushion?

Tracking Finances and Navigating Lifestyle Expectations

23:03 Emily: It sounds to me from the way you described that, that you and your husband either keep separate finances or like sort of track things kind of separately. Is that right?

23:11 Diandra: Yeah. So we don’t have any joint accounts but we do, you know, send money back and forth to each other all the time. So we keep it separately, and it’s good because then since we both did work around the same amount of time, that we have that money to grow. But we know that jointly, like if we’re going to go and buy a house, we can pull from both accounts. So like the HSA, since we got married this year, he’s going to switch over to a family plan. So I can’t contribute to my HSA during my program, but he’ll be able to contribute double. So it’s separate, but we joined them together. And like, when we look at our numbers, we’ll do both. So what do we individually and what do we combined have?

23:59 Emily: Yeah. And I think it’s also kind of a great, even though you’re keeping separate finances, it sounds like your lifestyle level you’ve agreed on. And you’re both living at this kind of grad student stipend ish level, and just doing a lot of saving above that. Because it sounded like you were saving 35 or maybe more percent of your stipend income, which is very high, very impressive. You must be keeping your lifestyle expenses quite low.

24:22 Diandra: Yeah. Yeah. So when we moved to Wisconsin from Maryland, actually, the last bonus that I got from my job paid for us to move across the country. So that was nice. It was just a net zero after that. Unfortunately I didn’t get to save any of it, but that was fine. So what we did when we moved here is we said, let’s pick an apartment that we can afford on my stipend. Since he was moving with me and for me, and he didn’t have a position to start with here. So we just immediately said, what is the lowest that we can find? And then like, you know, can we go slightly above that? You know, you want to live in a decent neighborhood, something that’s safe. But we were just very lucky. We got an apartment sight unseen.

25:12 Diandra: But it was actually only slightly higher than our rent back in Maryland. So we were able to just like, keep that nice low rent amount there. So that helped. And then one of the big things for us is that we do track all of our spending. We have a calendar. And so every day when we spend money, we have to write it on the calendar and then stare at it for the rest of the month. So it’s more like, was that purchase worth your life hours because that’s what you did and now you have to admit it. So we’re not like as stringent on what we spend, but like we always go into the grocery store with a budget. We say, we’re going to spend a hundred dollars on all our groceries. And we put every item in there individually. So we know when we’re hitting the cap. And if it’s only $5 more, well, that’s fine, but you don’t want to blow your budget. Like if you just don’t track it, then you can easily spend a lot more than you intended.

How Do You Describe SlowFI?

26:13 Emily: Well, thank you. So I actually have never heard that tip before of writing your spending on a calendar and then looking at it for a month. That’s actually a really great one. I understand that you identify as being on a SlowFI track right now. And I actually wrote a post recently on the flavors of five. So there’s all these different versions of FIRE, SlowFI being one of them. How do you describe SlowFI and yourself on that path?

26:38 Diandra: Yeah, so SlowFI is a term that was coined by the Fioneers. And so give like three big components. So they say it’s like embracing your dreams. So working in positions that will motivate you to like add to the world. To give back. Also being more intentional. So instead of just, I’m gonna work, work, work, work, work, you are in whatever you’re doing and that you’re actually like focusing on it and it speaks to you. So your position, your ultimate career should give you energy rather than take energy away from you. So I thought that was really, really key for the SlowFI movement. And then it’s also against that consumeristic kind of viewpoint of our country, where as you gain more money then you just buy more things. And then more things means more upkeep and being like environmentally-conscious.

27:38 Diandra: So for us, we just want to focus on the journey. So I think of it as what are you running towards instead of what are you running away from? So initially, we didn’t like our jobs, we weren’t satisfied. So we wanted to just get to FI so that we could take a break. But actually it’s really interesting with the pandemic right now that we’ve had glimpses of what life would be like if we were FI because we were fully remote for a while and we made our own schedules and it was interesting to see what do we choose to do with those extra hours. So finding that out now, while we still have incomes is better than leaving your job entirely, and then not knowing what you want to do, because if you say, I want to sip mojitos on the beach, that’s great.

28:30 Diandra: But how long is that going to last? So, I mean, for us, it was a really big shift when we met, I said that I never want to retire because I love research. And then I kind of shifted to, well, if money is not the determining factor in the position that I choose, then we can spend more time with family. We can travel more and be open to different opportunities so that maybe money is more of a tool rather than a requirement. And if I want to donate my time to work on some really awesome, amazing lifestyle research that maybe doesn’t have much money in the budget to pay me, then I can choose to do that. So that’s what SlowFI brings to us.

29:15 Emily: Yeah. I think the SlowFI path is probably one that’s quite appealing to PhDs. I know it’s appealing to me. Well, one, because it’s kind of necessary if you’re going to do graduate school at some point, you’re going to slow down your FI pursuit during that period. Almost certainly. It’s going to add some years. Like you said, though, earlier, there is income upside on the backside of the PhD, depending on, you know, what field you’re in. But I think PhDs also by and large have more opportunity to create work that they really love, that they’re really passionate about. That’s more, it goes with the territory, I think, of pursuing a PhD is that you found something that you love. And so yeah, work being part of your lifestyle long-term could still be attractive. Finding a job that you like, doesn’t have to be necessarily the most high-paying. Again, you don’t go into research if you want to be paid super, super, super well. You are talented enough to do other things if that’s your, you know, your primary motivation. So yeah, I think the SlowFI pursuit goes along very, very well with a lot of things that are common personality-wise to academics.

Best Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

30:15 Emily: So Diandra, as we wrap up here, would you please tell us your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

30:23 Diandra: Sure. My best financial advice would be to fight lifestyle inflation and determine your value of enough early on. So this will be easier than trying to cut back, but instead use your bonuses or raises to supercharge your investments and move you along the path to financial independence.

30:44 Emily: So you’ve used language a couple of times in this interview that I have recognized as being from Your Money or Your Life, which I am currently reading. Would you recommend that book or how has that book shaped your journey?

30:55 Diandra: Yes. Vicki Robin is amazing. I would highly recommend Your Money or Your Life. She’s the one that talks about calculating your life-hours. And so how much money you make, and then how many hours does it take for that? So, when I was working at the startup company, I was driving an hour and a half down to the company and hour and a half back. So it was three hours. So instead of saying I had an eight-hour day, I would have to say that I had an 11-hour day, and then I needed time to wind down. So it turned into a 12-hour day. And then I had car maintenance. So then, the money that I got paid per hour started getting ticked off because of all these additional costs that I didn’t think of initially. Because you think of your hourly rate is one flat rate, but I would highly recommend it if you want to get more context and see that, is your job really paying you what you think it is or are you trading too many of your life-hours for that paycheck?

That Science Couple Blog

32:01 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for that recommendation. And finally, tell us a little bit more about That Science Couple and what you’re doing with the blog.

32:08 Diandra: All right. So That Science Couple is a blog between Brad and I. And it was originally born out of a newsletter that we had written for our friends and family. So a couple of years ago, we had started our journey to becoming plant-based and we’ve used evidence-based nutrition. So there was the documentary Forks Over Knives, which I would highly recommend, and also the website nutritionfacts.org, which really motivated us to say like, look, there’s some science behind nutritional choices and that it’s not all about the macros. So we had noted that a lot of our friends and family didn’t understand the nitty-gritty details of this. And we wanted to start breaking down those complex ideas and topics into more relatable terms. So when we started our blog, we wanted it to be more holistic. Dr. T. Colin Campbell, his whole idea is treating us as like whole people.

33:07 Diandra: Also Dr. Dean Ornish does the same thing and there’s several other physicians that if we just look at one part, then we’re missing the whole picture. So what I really wanted to get across with our blog was that we can’t just talk about nutrition. But we are here because nutrition is important, but finances and having healthy finances is super important to having a lifestyle that, you know, supports health. And then our other point was the environment. So we didn’t want to tax the environment a lot. Brad was an environmental science major and got his master’s as well. So he wanted to talk about sustainability, and then that grew into, well, what makes a sustainable life? So when I was working as a scientist, it wasn’t sustainable. The commute wasn’t sustainable. The hours, the stress wasn’t sustainable. So how does that branch out further than just your impact on the environment, but your impact on you, personally?

34:09 Diandra: So those are the different categories that we’ve chosen to talk about on our blog. And, overall, we just want to provide a place for people to get information. So if you love those, you know, nerdy little citations and you want to see the references, like we’re going to be the place to go to, but then like personal growth is just like a free reign. So we had talked about The Value of Enough was a recent post that we put out. So if you’re trying to determine, you know, what makes your life sustainable, then maybe that’s a post that you would be interested in, too.

34:45 Emily: Yeah. We’ll link that post from the show notes. I can very easily see how those three topics interlock with one another and support and complement each other. So sounds wonderful. I’ve of course been to your blog and would recommend that everyone else go and check it out. And Diandra, thank you so much for joining me today and giving this wonderful interview.

35:04 Diandra: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was great.

Outtro

35:07 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes-commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance. But it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Fully Joint and Fully Separate Finances in Marriage: Perspectives from Two PhDs

September 21, 2020 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily discusses marital finances with Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts, an assistant professor at Creighton University. Emily and her husband keep fully joint finances, whereas Michelle and her husband keep fully separate finances. They detail their respective systems, list the advantages of each approach, consider how the legal realities line up or not with their preferred conceptions, and consider whether they would ever change their methods. They touch on IRS filing statuses, student loan debt, income shifts, living apart, and the addition of children.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Michelle: Every November, I have these two conferences and I know I’m going to be spending more money around that time. He doesn’t have to think about that at all. And if we had a joint account, we would always have to talk about that. And because we don’t, it’s not a thing that we need to discuss, he just knows that I go on these conferences.

Introduction

00:26 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode three, and today my guest is Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts, an assistant professor at Creighton University. Michelle and I discuss our methods for handling finances in our marriages. My husband and I keep fully joint finances, and Michelle and her husband keep fully separate finances. We detail our respective systems, list the advantages of each approach, consider how the legal realities line up with our preferred conceptions, and consider whether we’d ever change our methods. We touch on IRS filing statuses, student loan debt, income shifts, living apart, and the addition of children. Without further ado, here’s my discussion with Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:18 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts, and we’re doing a little bit of a different format today than my typical podcast interviews. Michelle and I are actually going to have a discussion today. The topic of our discussion is how to handle money in a relationship. And I was looking for someone to discuss this topic with me because my husband and I have our finances completely joint. And I know that that is not necessarily as common as a model as it used to be. And so I wanted to have someone on who would tell me about a different model. So, Michelle volunteered. She and her husband have separate finances. So, we have those two perspectives represented today. And there’s a third model that won’t be represented, which is the yours, mine, and ours model, which is sort of in between these two.

02:02 Emily: So, I hope you’ll get something from this that’ll be interesting to you. If you are in a relationship, if you handle money together as a couple, hopefully you’ll find some common ground with one or the other of us, or maybe you’ll disagree with both of us and say, “Well, I want to handle things completely differently than these two.” But yeah, that’s the topic for today. So, Michelle, thank you so much for joining me and having this discussion.

02:22 Michelle: Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to talking about this.

02:25 Emily: All right. So, why don’t we start Michelle with a little bit further introduction to you, like your academic and career background and where you live?

02:34 Michelle: Sure. So, I am a clinical psychologist by training. I’m currently living in Omaha, Nebraska, and I am an assistant professor at Creighton University and I’m a licensed clinical psychologist at CHI Health Initiative. I have a PhD from the University of Toledo in Ohio and my husband and I have been moving all across the country, met in undergrad and have been together ever since then. So, he’s been really following me around through all of my steps to get to where I am now. And I think that really factors into how money has been handled in our relationship because he is not a PhD. So, while I’ve been accruing debts and lots of things, that’s not been true for him. We started out as, you know, dating and as roommates before we were ever married. And so, the roommate piece has always been a factor in how we’ve handled money. And I think as we married that never changed because we had already found a system that worked for us.

Timeline for Michelle and Emily’s Relationships

03:49 Emily: Gotcha. Yeah. Can you put some dates on this? Maybe I’ll share some dates of my own as well. So, like when did you meet, when did you move or change things in your relationship? Going from dating to living together to marry, those kinds of things?

04:05 Michelle: Yeah, so we met in 2004 and we did not get married until 2016. So, I graduated in May of 2008 from undergrad, moved from Ohio to North Carolina and lived for a year on my own while he was finishing up his degree. And then he moved to North Carolina with me. So, I was a postbac at Duke for three years, we, that sort of started our trajectory on roommates. And then he followed me from Duke to Toledo for my PhD. And we lived in Toledo for four years. And then a requirement for clinical psychologists is that we do a year-long APA accredited internship somewhere in the country. And so, I happened to match at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences. So, we moved from Toledo, Ohio to Little Rock, Arkansas in 2015. And then we got married in the middle of my internship year in 2016. And then from there, we moved from Arkansas back to Ohio for postdoc, where I was a postdoc for four years at Ohio State. And then from Columbus, Ohio to Omaha, Nebraska, and have only lived in Omaha for about two months.

Separate to Joint Finances vs. Maintaining Separate Finances in Marriage

05:40 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That is a lot of moving, but not too unusual right? In the PhD world. So yeah, I’ll share kind of the counterpoint. There’s actually some points of overlap in our story, which is really interesting. So, my husband and I, before we married, Kyle, we graduated from college in 2007. We started dating in 2006 and we lived in different cities for a year. He started at Duke and I did a postbac at the NIH. And then in 2008 in the fall, I moved and started my PhD at Duke. We lived separately for two years until we got married in 2010. So when we got married, moved in, that’s when we combined our finances. So, we went from completely separate to completely joint.

06:30 Emily: Well, there’s a little bit of a transition, but aspiring to be joint when we got married that was in 2010 and it’s been that way since. So, we did have a small period of living apart for a few months when I did a fellowship after I finished my PhD, but we both defended in the summer of 2014. We lived in Durham for another year. I was in DC for part of that year. And then in 2015, we moved from Durham to Seattle. So, that’s kind of our story. And for the listeners, we’re recording this in September, 2019. So, that’s the perspective there. So, we’ve already heard a little bit about the history of like how the handling of the finances for both of us has changed over the course of our relationships. Is there anything else that you want to add to that as to maybe like philosophically, like why you’ve chosen to maintain the system that you had been using all along? Whereas of course I, as I just said, we changed at some point.

07:23 Michelle: Yeah. So, for me personally, my debt that I was accruing was my debt for my education and my career advancement, wasn’t necessarily my husband’s. And yes, I know legally it’s his debt now because we’re married. By not having our finances joint, it makes me feel like it’s still my debt and I’m still working to pay off my debt. And it actually helps me a lot. So, on fellowship, I got an NIH loan repayment grant and I was able to do that pretty easily because I had not consolidated my loans, and his undergrad loans weren’t part of mine and we didn’t have to deal with any of that. And I was told by NIH loan repayment that our finances were much more straightforward and it was easier for them to give me money because they didn’t have any headache with that. So, it was helpful in that regard. We were not thinking about that when we decided not to join accounts.

Benefits of Filing Taxes Jointly as a Married Couple

08:39 Emily: Yeah, sometimes there are unexpected benefits that come up along the way. So, I’m curious, do you guys file taxes married, filing jointly, or married, filing separately?

08:49 Michelle: Jointly.

08:50 Emily: Okay. Because that also, that sometimes affects like this loan repayment, like loan forgiveness stuff, depending on like what program you’re in. Did you want to add to that?

08:58 Michelle: It’s definitely like, we talked about how we were going to do that. And I think because economically we would benefit more from filing jointly as opposed to filing separately. And so that was pretty much the decision. It was more of an economic decision as opposed to a philosophical one, I guess.

09:12 Emily: Yeah, there’s this really strange thing, I guess, in the tax code that it does matter a lot, whether you’re married or not. Right? That’s the sort of defining line is legal marriage, depending on how you file. And then there’s a real disadvantage to married filing separately. I mean, there are some conditions under which some people choose to do that, but it’s not at all the same to do married, filing separately as it is when you’re not married. Like those are two vastly different treatments under the tax code. So, I find that to be very I mean, I’m sure there are reasons for it, but I find it to be kind of puzzling. So, there are sort of very, very special circumstances where it makes sense to do married filing separately, but they’re kind of rare actually, and actually often involve large student loan debts. And that’s one reason that people do file separately.

Advantages of Separate Finances in Marriage

09:59 Emily: Okay. So, I would say for my counterpoint on that, the philosophy or the reasoning behind us joining our finances when we got married was around our understanding of marriage or our idea of what marriage should be. And so, there are certain attributes of a married couple that we believe in. And one of those is joining finances. That’s not to say that everyone has to do it the same way we do, but that’s how we view our marriage. And so, it was important for us to go from not having anything in common before we were married to, after we were married, deciding that everything would be in common. So, let’s get to talking about, kind of like, what are the advantages of the joint finances model and the separate finances model? And please go first.

10:48 Michelle: Okay. So, advantages that I see are control. Control of your own money and how you spend it. Like, I don’t have to ask my husband and he doesn’t have to ask me to spend money. Because we both know what’s in our respective accounts and we are decent money managers. And so, we’re not necessarily consulting eachother about money all the time. And in fact, it’s very rare for us to have a discussion about money, or I don’t think we’ve ever fought about money because we’ve never needed to. So, I would consider that definitely a pro because finances are a common theme for stress and tension and marriage, and by us having separate accounts, I’m never needing to have that discussion with him because the bills that I pay are paid and it’s on my own volition and what he’s paying is on his and I never have to track that.

11:50 Emily: So, I have kind of a follow-up question about that, which is so at some points you do have to make decisions around money like where to live, for example. So, do you just eat sort of assess your own budgets and so forth and say, “Okay, this is how much I can spend on the next place that we live.” And you both just kind of agree on a number, is that right?

Separate Finances, Shared Vision and Life Goals

12:08 Michelle: Yes. Yeah. In general, we know, so we have, even though our finances are separate, we have shared goals for our life. So, our goal right now is to live like a postdoc, even though I’ve started my career. And with the goal of paying off my student loans and our credit card debt, so that we can then save for a house and just have a better life down the line. And so, we both share that vision, but how we go about getting to that vision is a little bit different because our accounts are separate.

12:46 Emily: Yeah. I’m really glad that you clarify that. That like, the vision is united. And the, as you were just saying, I thought you put that very well. The methods by which you each get there financially could be separate, but you’ve agreed on kind of where you’re headed. And so, you do aspire to own a house together. It sounds like.

13:05 Michelle: I think so. That’s a goal one day.

13:08 Emily: Okay. Gotcha. Any other advantages? I mean, that’s a big one.

13:12 Michelle: I mean, that for me is the biggest one. And just a sense for my just having my own autonomy within my relationship. I think that’s an important value for me as a person. And so, I get to have that. And my husband supports that because we have a very, like our philosophy on marriage is very much partner-focused and that we’re in it together. And that neither one of us is, you know, the owner of the other. We don’t have that kind of philosophy. And I think that reflects true in our finances. And I find that as an advantage.

Advantages of Joint Finances

13:55 Emily: Yeah, definitely. I thought of a couple of advantages to the joint system. So, one is complete simplicity. We have one checking account, both of our names on it. We have a set of savings accounts that both of our names are on. As I said, the credit cards are a little bit more complicated. Some of those, we have both of our names on there’s like one or two on each of our sides that we only have one, mostly because the other one might sign up later to get the parks as well. So yeah, to me, that simplicity is there. Now, I’m not sure how you handle this part, but I know that for some people who, for instance, have the yours, mine and ours model, they end up having a joint checking account, separate checking accounts, joint savings, separate savings, maybe joint credit cards, maybe separate credit cards. And also there’s a lot of transferring going on. So, I don’t know, like when you pay your bills, for example, do you, like one is responsible–like, how do you handle, I guess the transferring that might need to go on? Or do you avoid that?

14:47 Michelle: Yeah, so for bills, I, in fact, up until this move, had handled all of the bill paying, and so I would pay the bills every month and then we would split finances. So, he would literally write me a check, and then I would deposit that into my account and make sure all the bills got paid. This move, because of all the stress and things in my own world that were happening around this move, he actually took some ownership on setting up some of our bills for this new move. And so, now he’s responsible for some bills that I would have previously been paying, and that seems to be working out okay. It’s just what he’s paying and then gets deducted from what he would owe for the rest of his half.

15:35 Emily: Gotcha. Yeah. So there still is some, when you live together and you have shared expenses, you still have to do some of this transferring or somehow decide how to split it up. So, one advantage of joint finances, is the simplicity. Oh, and when we get paid, like all of our money goes into that checking account. Although, you know, come to think of it. My business is something that’s separate, because the business is not in my name alone. But when I pay myself from my business, that goes into our joint checking. And I’m not like spending out of the business for personal stuff, obviously. So, kind of once it is entering into our personal finances it’s joint. So, that’s one advantage is the simplicity. Not having to do the transfers.

Complete Transparency and Agreement

16:14 Emily: And then another one is complete transparency. So, this is not something that necessarily everyone desires, but we do. And so, obviously because everything’s joint, we both have complete access to everything and there’s no, basically there’s no way that any of us could keep a secret from the other without going and opening another account. That obviously could happen. Like, logistically one of us could do that. But in terms of what we know about, we can all see everything. And actually, so in addition to actually like literally sharing the accounts in terms of his name or on them, we also have a Mint account that we share where everything goes into that. And so that was actually helpful. We started that Mint account sort of, you know, as we were getting married and joining everything. So, for the things that were separate, that we didn’t like close down right away, they were all in Mint anyway. So, we could each see what was going on, even if like, you know, that random other account was still open for a little while. So, I liked that aspect of transparency a lot. To me, another feature of joint finances is that you have to agree on everything. But of course the corollary to that is that if you don’t agree, then there’s friction, then there are problems. As you were just saying, by keeping things separate, you really minimize kind of the, the level.

17:30 Emily: Like if you agree on the big picture, like the details, whatever it’s separate, who cares as long as you’re both adhering to the shared vision, I really liked how you phrased that. But for us, it’s sort of a feature that we have to agree about everything. Like I know other people view that as like a downside, but we do have to agree on everything or agree to disagree. Right? And agree to let one another have some autonomy in our decision making and just not care. And of course we’ll still see it. As I said, with the transparency. I think this was more important to us, or it was more of a factor like us having to agree on things earlier in our marriage, because we were both in graduate school. So, we weren’t earning as much money as we are now.

18:12 Emily: And our expenses, we were just a lot more like strict around budgeting and so forth. I mean, by necessity, right? We had to be, so the incomes were lower. So, we had to agree there wasn’t really, there wasn’t really a lot of fat in the budget. Right? And so everything had–not everything, because we agreed on a lot of things automatically–but if there were any points of disagreement, we had to force ourselves to come to an agreement. Or again, agree to disagree and just spend what we will.

Both Spending Models Encourage Conversations About Finances

18:36 Emily: So, I remember like early on in our marriage, I’m a bit of a natural spender. It’s something I’ve had to kind of curb over time, especially during graduate school. And my husband could not understand. We were going to all these weddings, right? Because we were in our mid twenties, we had just gotten married. We were going to a lot of weddings. My husband could not understand why I needed a new dress for, not like literally every event, but like a lot of events. I was like telling him, “I need to buy a new dress for this.” He was like, “I’m wearing the same suit to every single one of these events.” And I was like, “Well, this is a day wedding. And this is an evening wedding. You have to consider the season and the temperature and like the fanciness level.” And so I was trying to tell him all these reasons why I had to like buy all these new dresses. And he ultimately like, did not really understand it, but he just had to like, kind of accept it for a while. And so, that was an example of sort of an ongoing, not like fight, but just like sort of puzzlement on his side of why I was making these decisions.

19:27 Emily: But what that did though, is it kind of forced him, I think, to understand something about women and women’s fashion and the constraints and the expectations that we’re under. And it also forced me ultimately, you know, I didn’t keep up that dress-buying habit for more than a few years. And so, it also kind of forced me to be like, “Well,” rethink, like, “Do I really need all these new clothes for all these new events?” And so, it was a reason for us to kind of evolve our, I guess, thinking or understanding of each other and that kind of thing. So anyway, some short-term conflicts sometimes, but I liked that we are ultimately forced to agree and work things out. So to me, that’s a feature. And then the last feature, did you want to add anything there?

20:08 Michelle: I think just, as a counter perspective, by having separate accounts, it’s actually forced us to talk about finances more than if we had a joint–and maybe not more, but in a different way. So, I like you, Emily, am more of a spender and I have to really be conscientious about saving. Whereas my husband is very frugal and he would never spend money if he could get away with that. And so, it’s more like I’m talking to him as a confidant about money and, “Okay, so I’m really, I’m considering, you know, I love shoes and I think I need a new pair of tennis shoes,” and then he’ll reflect back and say, “Well, do you really? And how are these shoes going to help you with whatever?” And sometimes I’ll listen and I’ll say, “Okay, yeah, you’re right. I probably don’t need these shoes.” And it’s more of a partnership piece as opposed to a necessity. Like, I don’t need his opinion or his approval for me to buy this thing, but I I’m seeking it because I value his input. And in some ways that’s strengthened our relationship.

21:26 Emily: Yeah. So, even though you don’t have to, at the end of the day, you do choose to, I mean, you said earlier, you don’t talk about money much, but it sounds like maybe you talk around it a little bit. Like money affects a lot of things in our lives. And so, it’s kind of hard to go without discussing it at all, at least in an oblique manner. But what I like about what you’re saying is that like you’re still bringing it up and bringing whatever the decision is out into the open. And ultimately at the end of the day, it’s still your decision, but you are seeking his opinion or his counsel. Yeah. I really like that.

Advantage of Joint Finances: Navigating Income Disparities

21:57 Emily: The last advantage that I thought of for having joint finances is that it doesn’t matter who earns what. So, like when my husband and I were in graduate school, we earned about the same amount of money. So, not really huge concerns there. Right? Two people, two incomes that were pretty much the same feels like equal, right? After graduate school, I became self-employed. My income went down–right?–initially and then has risen over time. But his income increased because he got a proper job, a proper post-PhD job. And so, he saw an income jump, and I saw initially an income decrease. And it didn’t matter, like there wasn’t tension around that. And also the decisions that we had to make, like, for example, when you were saying earlier about, okay, you need to come to an agreement on where to live. So, like had we had separate finances under that situation, it would be like, well, I almost can’t contribute anything like to the household or very little, and he would be contributing a lot.

22:57 Emily: Under the joint model, we don’t concern ourselves with that because the money all just is shared. And so, whatever we can budget and afford on the completely combined income is what is going to happen, you know, for our family. And I guess I should say that basically, had we had separate finances and were committed to both contributing, for instance, equally to the household, then I just wouldn’t have started my business. It just, it wouldn’t have happened that way or wouldn’t have happened at that time. Like I would have gone and gotten a job and had an income more equal to what his was or close to. Yeah. And so, I think that the joint finances model has actually helped me like follow my dream. Right? As starting this business. And likewise for him, like he took a job at a startup, which we know at any point the ride could be over, right?

23:51 Emily: It’s an early-stage startup. And so, I guess of course he could have like saved maybe and provided for him self, I guess, in the event of job loss or something, if that’s what an emergency fund is for. But I guess we sort of have more like peace of mind knowing there’s like two incomes going into this pot and, you know, the expenses would be paid like from those two incomes. And again, it doesn’t really matter who’s earning what. So, that’s, again, our philosophy on that. And, I guess I should also mention, we have two children and especially early on in their lives, I was doing a lot more of the childcare. So, my income was lower. I was doing a lot more of the, sort of the work for the household. Right? That was unpaid.

24:29 Emily: And he was doing more of the earning, like outside the household. And that situation has changed now, like my income has risen and we have more childcare now. So, we might be able to handle things differently if we wanted to. But I feel like at that time joint finances were really necessary because the contributions that I was making the household were not reflected in income as much. So yeah, I guess it depends also on like sort of life stage and if both people are working or what decisions are around that, but there’s, I feel like extreme advantages to the joint finances model in certain configurations of income disparities. Right?

25:04 Michelle: Yeah. And I think it might be helpful to know. So, with every transition and are, and new we’ve always moved for my career. And so, the move I was able to start working and earning right away. My husband has followed me. So, every move he’s had to find a job. And so there’s been periods of time at every step where he’d been unemployed and was living on savings until he found a job. And that is currently true for us as we just moved two months ago. So, he’s still he’s looking and does not have a job. And so, knowing that, you know, he’s set up savings, and also this piece of this transition has been around, “Okay, now my income is a lot higher than what his will be when he gets a job. And so then how do we balance bills?” Yes, jointly we have more money, but what he can contribute is less than what I could contribute. And so, we’ve talked about paying a percentage of whatever our bills are. So, if we’re going for right now, our finances are exactly the same as they were on postdoc. And so it’s easy to do what we were doing previously, but as we transition in the next few years to basically growing and towards home ownership, we might be able to afford a house that he wouldn’t be able to afford on his income alone. And so, then that’ll be a discussion of like how we’re going to handle that.

Commercial

26:52 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. I bet you and your peers are hungry for financial information right now, especially if it’s tailored for your unique PhD experience. I offer seminars, webinars, and workshops on personal finance for early-career PhDs that can be billed as professional development or personal wellness programming. My events cover a wide range of personal finance topics, or take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you’re interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. We can absolutely find a way to get this great content to you and your peers, even while social distancing. Now, back to our interview.

Disadvantages of Joint and Separate Finances

27:51 Emily: So, that was kind of the end of my list of advantages that I see in joint finances. Was there anything that you wanted to add as like maybe disadvantages of your system? Disadvantages of my system, except if they haven’t already been covered by highlighting advantages of one or the other?

28:07 Michelle: I mean, the disadvantage of the separate model is around these transitions when your finances change substantially. And now it’s a matter of us having this discussion. Whereas, like you said, with the joint model, you wouldn’t have to do that if it’s built in.

28:28 Emily: One disadvantage of joint finances that I often see brought up. I don’t personally experience it, but a lot of people will bring up, what do you do about gifts? You know, what do you want to do when you want some secrecy, but it’s for the benefit right, of the other person and for that joy of gift giving? And I don’t experience this as an issue myself and I have some like, ideas about workarounds, basically. Like, sort of in my mind, if your only hangup about joint finances is gifts, there are easy ways to get around that and still have the totally joint model. If gifts are among other reasons why you don’t like the model, then that that’s fine. That can factor in. But like after I receive the gift and I was like, “How did you pull that off?” He’s like, “Oh, I know you check Mint. So, I did it on this random card that I just didn’t update from Mint.” So, that’s very tricky. I think an easier solution is just to use cash. Just take out cash and say, “Oh, I need some cash for some reason, don’t inquire too hard.” Or, “Oh, I’m buying you a gift, but you don’t know what it is yet.”

29:31 Emily: Or go to a place like Target or Amazon where you might be buying any kind of thing and let it be a secret for the time being. So, you might need to get a little bit tricky around gift-giving or at least having an agreement of like, you know, “I won’t look at that for a little while, while you’re getting me a gift.” But to me it seems like a pretty minor, I guess, speed bump in the model for joint finance. But it’s one that comes up a lot. So, I wanted to kind of address that.

29:57 Michelle: Unless, of course, your love language is gift giving and then it’s a very big deal. And so, I could see that being more important or more impactful to defining whether to have a joint account.

30:13 Emily: Yeah, I think that’s probably where, if it was something you were doing on a very regular basis, like every month or something like that, I can see–so, there’s sort of a subset of joint finances which is like joint with allowances. And so, your allowance could come out in cash so the other person doesn’t know what you do with it. Or it could even be two separate checking accounts, but your income goes into joint account. And then the separate account gets the, whatever it is, a hundred dollars a month, whatever your allowance is. And so, that’s a way that you can regularly keep some money from your spouse seeing it while still maintaining the spirit of the joint model. But of course, yeah, the bigger the component of your life this is, the more it argues that you need to have a specific system around figuring this out, which we obviously do not.

Unique Situations for Money Management as PhDs in a Relationship

31:02 Emily: One of the last questions here, Michelle, are there any attributes or situations unique to PhDs that might inform the choice of how to manage money in a relationship? So, I thought about living apart, which I mentioned earlier, my husband and I lived apart only for about three months. So, it was very short period of time a few years ago. But I have had friends, PhDs, sometimes two PhD couples, sometimes just one PhD couple, that have been living apart for years at a time because of training and stuff. You’ve been very fortunate and very supported that your husband has been following you around. Not everyone is able or willing to do that. So yeah, I guess I can see that this might inform the decision, right? Because the more, I guess separation you have like living in one place versus another, I think the more that supports the separate, or at least partially joint, partially separate models. Because as you were saying earlier, like you don’t have to, you do, but you don’t have to consult with your husband on decisions. That doesn’t really affect him, what you do with your own finances.

32:07 Emily: So to me, that model makes a lot of sense when the day-to-day decisions don’t really involve both of you. Right? And only involves one of you. And so, I felt that a little bit. I mean, again, I was only apart from my husband for a few months, but yeah, like what I did on a daily basis, the shopping or the eating out or whatever, like he wasn’t involved in any of that. So, it was a little bit odd that, you know, the money was still coming from our joint account. And so, I think that we did have a little bit less like sort of communication around what was going on. Like he just sort of was like, well, basically by that point, like we knew each other’s spending habits. And as long as we weren’t going outside of that, it didn’t really need to come up that much. But yeah, it was kind of odd to be like living in it in a different place and still withdrawing from that joint bank account. But you know, it was just a short period of time. So for us, it wasn’t, it didn’t warrant like changing the model, but yeah, I can see how there’s a reason to be a little bit more separate if your lives are kind of separate.

33:05 Michelle: I would say that’s pretty true for us. My husband’s not a PhD, not an academic by any means. And the culture around being a PhD and, you know, having to go to conferences and networking and sort of the things we spend money on that we wouldn’t spend money on if we weren’t PhDs, that’s very real for us. Because there are many times where I’m like, “Okay, so every November I have these two conferences and I know I’m going to be spending more money around that time.’ He doesn’t have to think about that at all. And if we had a joint account, we would always have to talk about that. And because we don’t, it’s not a thing that we need to discuss. He just knows that I go on these conferences and I’m still able to pay the bills. And it’s just made things a little bit smoother, I think. And he hasn’t needed to learn the culture of being a PhD because we have these separate accounts around money.

34:08 Emily: Yeah. That’s a really good point that like, especially PhD training and even, I guess, could be as a professor to some degree as well, there are certain demands that are made of your personal finances that would not be made if you were not a trainee or an academic. And that’s super unfortunate, but the reality. And so, like you said, he doesn’t need to be fully indoctrinated in the way that we are into how academia affects your personal finances because you have things separate. Yeah, that makes sense. I didn’t think about that. That we do have to pay for more things out of pocket than maybe somebody else would in another kind of career, wow.

34:53 Michelle: Conferences, memberships for different societies and things like that. But, you know, I can only imagine if we were to actually have a joint account, he would be like, “Why do you need to spend a hundred dollars on this membership, tell me how that’s going to benefit you in your everyday life? And the answer is, “It doesn’t really, but it does help me network and that will help advance my career.” And, you know, we don’t have to have that conversation.

PhD Finances: Handling Changes in Income

35:22 Emily: Yeah. Very, very interesting. The other one that I thought of regarding PhD finances is changes in income. So you, for example, have gone from needing to take out student loan debt and so forth to having a very nice salary, presumably now, and maybe other PhDs have less dramatic swings, but usually the completion of PhD training does involve hopefully a pay raise at some point, probably a big one. So that’s just been, I don’t know how that would maybe affect advantages of one model or another, but it just does affect how you handle your finances in general. And you mentioned earlier living like a postdoc, which is a great sort of mantra to live like a college student, live like a graduate student, live like a postdoc, live like a resident. These are all meaning the same thing of live well below your means and maintaining your prior lifestyle even through income increases.

36:12 Emily: So, it’s just a good kind of personal finance strategy in general. I guess this might play a little bit into what I was mentioning earlier about income disparity. Like between me and my husband, we went from being more equal incomes to be more, at a time, more disparate. And yeah. So, if PhD do experience, let’s say hopefully a jump in income, having the joint model can be helpful, I guess, in the sense that like, you’re, I guess you’re kind of in it to gather because at a point when maybe one person isn’t contributing as much to the household, that can be sort of smoothed out, I guess over time by the other person’s income being more like stable or something like that. And the other thing is that there is an upside usually to PhD finances, which is that jump in income later. And so both people benefit from the upside, like you were talking about earlier, like you’re talking about how you and your husband together, the household might benefit from your now great increase in income by perhaps splitting the percentage a little bit differently with the joint model that sort of comes baked in, right?

37:18 Emily: Like both people enjoy the upside, but they also are together on the downside. So there’s, yeah. There are two parts of that. Just something to think about, I guess, with PhDs and those income swings is what you would prefer. I wouldn’t necessarily say it argues more for one or the other, but just something to consider.

37:36 Michelle: For us, my debt is a detriment to us buying a house, but my income increase is the asset. And so, the way that we’ve kind of balanced that is pay down my debt, which I’m doing and I’m taking ownership of, right? Because it’s mine, it’s, you know, our separate accounts, and he doesn’t ever have to think about that necessarily. While at the same time I’m paying down debt, he can take his income and stack it away in savings. And so, eventually what he’s been able to save will help us buy a house and my income level will help us buy a house.

Would You Consider Changing Your Finance Model?

38:18 Emily: Gotcha. Yeah. So, you’re contributing, but it’s in like different ways kind of in the future. Yeah. That’s interesting. So, Michelle, do you see your model changing at any point? Do you foresee any circumstances that might cause you to reconsider this?

38:33 Michelle: I don’t think so. I don’t think so. It’s been working so well for 15 years that it’s hard to imagine a time when we would need to do something different.

38:46 Emily: Yeah. You guys have you have it down pat now, right?

38:49 Michelle: Yeah.

38:50 Emily: Yeah. I think on our side as I said, kind of earlier, as our income has increased as a household, we have more flexibility. Like, I sort of phrase it as when we had a lower income, we were much more strict about our budgeting and we had to agree a lot more. Now we have a little bit more autonomy because our income is higher. Like, if we want to do more discretionary spending. So, my husband’s really into buying electronics. Before we had sort of a strict budget on that. And I didn’t really care as long as he stayed within the budget, but it was kind of a low budget. Now, it’s more like, “Okay, you want to buy something?” He’ll talk to me about it. But ultimately I’m just like, “Well, if you want it, go ahead and get it.” We have much more flexibility now. And so that’s kind of, I guess, changed like our attitudes about it. I mean, everything is still joint and it’s still sort of a decision, but we just have a lot more freedom, I guess, both of us do to do more spending, should we choose to, or should we desire to.

39:48 Emily: I think that we will probably stick with the joint model because philosophically, it’s kind of like, we’re married, so we’re going to be joint. I’m not really opposed to the yours, mine and ours thing if it’s under the allowance model that I mentioned earlier. If maybe like, “Okay, you have a few hundred dollars a month, you can do whatever you want with and go ahead and I don’t need to know about it.” Like I can maybe see us moving to that at some point, but I don’t know necessarily why it would happen because it’s not something that causes friction for us right now. So, I don’t think it would in the future. But if it did, I’m okay with that allowance sort of system of it. I definitely don’t see us moving to being fully separate at any point, or even to the point where we would have our incomes be like deposited separately.

40:31 Emily: Because I just think, especially now that we have kids, it’s just the family, it’s just the household, like everything’s together. So yeah, I think the model will more or less stay as it is. Yeah. So, you know, Michelle, I appreciate you having this discussion with me so much and I hope the listeners have heard something that they resonated with for your model or for the model that I use or something that they disagree with and it’ll help them decide how things are going. It seems like things are really working well for you. So, I’m super happy about that. And obviously I feel that way about how things are working for us too. So, it just shows that, you know, people are different, relationships are different and how you handle your finances. It might look different. Like we, you know, we started off saying, okay, you do separate an I do joint. This is like, these are extremes on a spectrum. But really we can see that in both cases, the relationship has a shared vision of where we’re going in the future and agrees to a great deal, whether talked about or not, generally is an agreement with how things need to go. And yeah, the mechanics of it look a little bit different, but there’s a lot of commonality here as well. So, I was really happy to hear that. Any concluding thoughts from you?

41:34 Michelle: I would agree. I think both models can be effective and I think it ultimately will come down to what you value in your relationship. And as a person, that’s what’s going to drive your decision-making about what model you choose.

41:52 Emily: Yup, definitely. So, thank you so much Michelle.

41:54 Michelle: You’re welcome. Thank you.

Outtro

41:58 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How This Entering PhD Student Has Set Himself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School

August 10, 2020 by Emily

In this episode, Emily interviews George Walters-Marrah, a rising first-year PhD student in biophysics at Stanford. In the last year, as George has been applying to and preparing to attend graduate school, he’s been on a financial journey as well. We walk chronologically through the financial steps he’s taken this year, from applying for fellowships last fall to taking a personal finance course this past spring to drafting a budget this summer for how he plans to use his stipend in Palo Alto. Additionally, Emily and George have an insightful conversation on what George learned about investing in his personal finance course and how he’s already implementing some of the strategies.

Teaser

00:00 George: I’ve been investing for a while now. And it’s like, it’s not really time-consuming at all. I kind of like check it at least once a day just because I like looking at it. But other than that, it’s not like I’m constantly fidgeting with my stuff. And I think the more you fidget with it, the more fees you get. So, it’s like, it’s kind of like passive investing. It’s kind of like a win-win.

Introduction

00:21 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 15, and today my guest is George Walters-Marrah, a rising first-year PhD student in biophysics at Stanford. In the last year, as George has been applying to and preparing to attend graduate school, he’s been on a financial journey as well. We walk chronologically through the financial steps he’s taken this year, from applying for fellowships last fall to taking a personal finance course this past spring to drafting a budget this summer for how he plans to use his stipend in Palo Alto. Additionally, we have an insightful conversation on what George learned about investing in his personal finance course and how he’s already implementing some of the strategies. This is a perfect episode to listen to if you are near the start of your financial journey, whether that’s at the beginning of graduate school or further on in your career. Without further ado, here’s my interview with George Walters-Marrah.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:26 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today George Walters-Marrah. He is a rising PhD student. We are recording this interview in July, 2020, and within the next month or two, he’s going to be starting his PhD program at Stanford. And he’s already been on a financial journey. So, we’re going to talk through about the last year, how he’s been preparing financial aid to go into his PhD program, as well as he’s done an awesome amount of career preparation to get to that stage as well. So, George, it’s a real pleasure to have you on the podcast. Would you please introduce yourself to the listeners?

01:58 George: Thank you for having me. So, I just graduated with my bachelor’s in molecular microbiology, and I have a research interest in interdisciplinary sciences. But I’ve also been kind of really obsessed with personal finance over the last year. So, I’m glad to be able to talk about it. Because whenever I get the chance, I kind of get excited because I’ve been so involved and kind of like consumed with it for a while. So, thanks for having me.

Financial Preparation Before Grad School

02:28 Emily: Well, it’s really exciting for me as well. And the way we actually met was over Twitter, and you prepared this fabulous document of personal finance resources and included a lot of mine in there, which I’m really grateful for and you shared it. And I happened to see it and was just so flattered that you did that, and it was a fantastic document. So, I’m really excited that you have been sharing this material with your peers. We’ll get into that, why you’re doing that during the course of the interview. So, let’s take it back to almost a year ago. How were you starting to prepare financially for graduate school even, you know, well, well, before you finished your undergrad degree?

03:05 George: Yeah. So, about a year ago I was like kind of oblivious to personal finance. But what I did know was that there were things called fellowships and scholarships and stuff that I could apply to. So, like about a year ago during the summer, I was looking into scholarships and fellowships and I applied, I was starting to apply to the NSF GRFP, the Ford Fellowship, and other things like that. So, I started that pretty early and I would suggest to start that over the summer, if you can. If not, start it at the beginning of the fall, because I was able to get a couple of fellowships and I think a really big reason I was able to do that was because I started so early, kind of like reaching out to my letter writers and starting my personal statement and kind of like collecting the different, like papers that I would need to write my research proposal.

Balancing Coursework with Grad School Applications

03:54 Emily: Yeah. We’ll link in the show notes because I’ve done a couple other interviews with fellowship winners and that was a common thread of advice: start early. So, even right now, you know, July for the people who are going to be applying in the upcoming, you know, starting about six months from now, they need to really be working on this, you know, the preparation process getting started now. How did you–so I applied for graduate school and all of these fellowships after I finished my undergrad, I had a post-bac year–how did you manage sort of balancing your coursework, your thesis work, I assume, with doing these, you know, intensive applications?

04:30 George: So, full disclosure, I was a fifth year student, so I graduated in five years. So, I had most of my class requirements done. So, I had the luxury of kind of decreasing the amount of classes I had. So, I still had 12 credit hours, but I was able to kind of like pick and choose classes that weren’t like super intensive. So, I kind of did that. And I also had the luxury of having a class that could be like a placeholder and I could use that time to do my personal statement and prepare to apply to graduate school and fellowships. But I would say that, try to decrease the amount of classes that are super intensive. Try to kind of pick classes that, you don’t have a lot of, like, time-consuming, like it doesn’t consume a lot of the your time, and kind of learn how to say no to things.

05:25 George: If you can kind of just say no to a few things so you can use that time to kind of work towards your fellowship applications, work towards your grad school applications. I think that would kind of like, it builds up, like when you keep saying yes. So, if you kind of learn how to say no to things that may not be helpful to you in the future, or may not be worth the time, I think that would kind of really be helpful with allowing you to find that time to kind of complete all that you need to do that last semester.

Which Fellowships Did You Win?

05:54 Emily: Yeah. I think it’s a great idea that you actually had space in your core schedule for doing these applications, because that’s really how you need to treat it. You need to treat it as at least one class, if not multiple classes. That’s the amount of time it’ll take. So, you were successful in winning some of these fellowships. Which ones did you win?

06:12 George: So, I was able to get like three fellowships. It was kind of like three different types of fellowships. So, I had got an external fellowship and two internal fellowships. So, I got the NSF GRFP, which was external, it kind of followed me wherever I went. And then I got an internal Stanford fellowship, which is, they kind of reviewed my application and you kind of get considered for this just by applying. And they gave me that fellowship based on my application. And then my last fellowship is one I got actually pretty recently. And it was a fellowship that I got by applying to a program, a first year program, after I got accepted and after I decided to come. So, it was kind of like the first one, I applied to it way before I applied to grad school, and then I got the external one. The second one, like they considered me just by applying, and I got that one. And the third one, I applied to it after I actually got into the program. And it was like a separate first-year program at Stanford. So, like, there are kind of several different ways that you can try and get these fellowships, which I think is like really nice.

07:16 Emily: Yeah. So, the fellowship applications did not stop, you know, just after the fall of your application season. That’s awesome that you won so many different ones. I have a post that I’ll link to in the show notes where I list a bunch of these portable external fellowships, like the NSF GRFP. So, I’ll put them in the show notes if people want to kind of peruse through. A lot of people know about the NSF fellowship, but there are some other ones that are a little bit less known. You mentioned Ford earlier. That’s another great one. So anyway, there’ll be a list there, several ones you can probably apply to, you know, in the year that you’re applying to graduate school and then in a few years after that, but you’re taking care of for a few years. So, that’s amazing.

Lessons Learned from Undergrad Personal Finance Course

07:53 Emily: Okay, so now we’re going to fast forward, you know, that was kind of the fall of your last year of undergrad. And then I believe in the spring semester you took a personal finance course. So, tell me a little bit about that course. Like why did you elect to take it, and maybe like two to three big takeaways from the course that you think would be really instructive for other PhDs to know?

08:14 George: Yeah. So, my school like offers this course called Personal Finance and Investments. I actually learned about it the fall that I was applying to graduate school. And I always wanted to take a personal finance class because I didn’t really know anything about personal finance. I didn’t know how to invest. I didn’t know how to make a budget. I didn’t know any of that stuff. And in my first few semesters, I thought of like, “Oh, maybe it’s microeconomics or macroeconomics or something like that,” but I read the summary and it didn’t make sense. So, I finally found this class and that’s like, “Oh, this is the class.” So, I took it and it was a great class. Like, it was a kind of a learning curve. You had to kind of learn the language of personal finance. Like what’s a dividend and all these different stuff.

Lesson 1: You Don’t Have to be an Expert to Invest

08:55 George: But after I got the hang of it, it kind of went very smoothly and I got like way more invested in it. And if I was to say to like three things that I thought that I learned from that class that were very helpful to me, the first big one is that to invest, you don’t really need to like follow the stock market and be like an expert and kind of like, look at it every single second of every day. There are like a lot of different kinds of innovative ways that allow kind of like people who are super busy or people that are kind of inexperienced to actually have a good experience investing.

09:29 Emily: If I can summarize that first point or what you were starting to say, it’s that, I mean, I love the way you phrased it. Like investing does not have to be something that you are paying attention to all day long every day in and out. I think that is an image that we have in our culture of what investing is, maybe from like, I don’t know, the eighties or the nineties or something, like it’s kind of archaic at this point. Because index funds, which I think was what you were starting to talk about there. They’ve been around for, I don’t know, four or five decades at this point, but only have really been gaining in popularity in the last couple of decades. But index funds, like you were saying, just are a diversification. Like you get a lot of different investments, stock investments often in one bucket and it’s representative of kind of the whole market or an entire sector of the market. And so you can buy, you essentially buy everything when you buy an index fund and it’s in a given market sector. That means you’re buying the winners. It means you’re buying the losers. But it turns out that that’s a more effective strategy than trying to pick the winners and avoid the losers. Is that what you were learning through your course?

10:31 George: Yeah, so, it was big because like, I think like a lot of people think they have to beat the market, but if you match the market, you kind of avoid that pitfall of like losing to the market. Because it either could go really bad or really good, or you could just match it. And then the market kind of like trends up. So, I decided to go that way, kind of like passive investing. So, that’s like the one, the first big thing that you don’t have to, it’s not a full-time job to invest, which is really nice, since as a grad student, I’ll be very busy.

11:04 Emily: Actually, if I could expand on that for one more second. So, I also tell people like investing should not be your side hustle. Like you should not be spending a ton of time working on your investments. And I always say to them, like, if you want a full-time job doing investing, get a full-time job as an investor, be a hedge fund manager or go do that kind of thing. Like, make a ton of money off of this. Don’t just play around with your own money. If you’re going to be, you know, actually investing that kind of time into the process, which again, I don’t think is necessary or a good idea. So to me, investing is kind of like learn about it for a little while, you set up what you need to set up, and then you just let it run and you just do maintenance and you don’t have to, you know, mess around with it a whole lot.

Lesson 2: Make an Emergency Fund

11:45 George: Yeah. I totally agree, because like, I’ve been investing for a while now and it’s like, it’s not really time-consuming at all. I kind of like check it at least once a day just because I like looking at it. But other than that, it’s not like I’m constantly fidgeting with my stuff. And I think the more you fidget with it, the more fees you get. So, it’s like, it’s kind of like passive investing. It’s kind of like a win-win. But I guess two more points that I would say that are really nice that I got out of it is that kind of making an emergency fund. I never really thought of that. Kind of like before, an emergency happens, you just have the money in your savings account. So, I’ve been trying to get my emergency fund kind of like they say at a minimum is three months but I’m hoping to get it like higher, maybe to nine months, if possible.

Lesson 3: Time Value of Money

12:29 George: And I’m kind of slowly building towards that. And another thing that I learned that was pretty interesting is that, kind of like this thing called, I think it’s called time, money value, a time value of money. It’s kind of like a dollar today is worth more than a dollar a year from now. So, if you can get money today and kind of put it in your investments or put it into your savings account, maybe like a high yield savings account, that will be worth more than kind of like $50, maybe a year from now, that you weren’t able to get that interest off of by having it in your account. So, I never really thought of it that way. I kind of, I always thought that like, “Oh, if I have a thousand dollars today, it’s the same as having a thousand dollars in 10 years.” So, those are kind of like the three big things that I would think of that I got from the class.

13:15 Emily: Yeah. I think the time value of money is also just a, it’s a mind-blowing concept. Like once you kind of understand like compound interest and how much your money can work for you. And I think the point that, you know, graduate students especially should take away from that is it’s okay–it’s great–to start investing now with a very small amount of money. It will not be a small amount of money decades from now when you actually reach retirement. So, what I like to say is that graduate students should not dismiss whatever tiny amount of money they might be able to start investing right now. Maybe it’s $10 a month. Maybe it’s $50 a month. That money will add up over time with this factor of compounding with the time value of money applied to it. And so, yeah, it’s not something that you should just say, “Oh, well, I can’t really save that much, so I’m not going to bother. Like, it’s still something you should pursue, even if it’s a small amount of money today.

14:05 George: Yeah. Totally agree.

What Financial Changes Did You Make?

14:08 Emily: And so, what did you actually, you know, you took this fabulous course, you learned a lot from it. What changes did you actually make? So, you’ve already mentioned that you started investing. Can you talk a little bit about how you started down that road?

14:20 George: Yeah, so I started investing well, like the first thing I did was I tried to get my financial life together, trying to get like my financial health in order because I didn’t really know anything. So, I started tracking my finances. So, I got the Mint app. I started tracking how much money I spend in a month. And the first month I wasn’t really trying to make a budget. I was just trying to understand my money habits and see what I could change. See what I wanted to keep. And then I started thinking about budgeting. And then after that I started my emergency fund. I also started collecting all of my important documents, like my birth certificate and my social security number and putting them in one place. They were kind of like scattered around. So, I wanted to put them in one place and kind of like, just get all of my stuff, like organized, like the first few months.

15:05 George: And then after I got myself situated and kind of like knew what was going on financially, that’s when I started investing. I decided to do a Robo Roth at the start until I get kind of like experienced with the stock market. And then I plan to transfer it over to a manual one to kind of like start my own Roth. So, my manual Roth–I mean not my manual Roth, my Robo Roth, I’m kind of like, “invest stuff for me,” and it’s kind of in the safest way possible. So, I don’t kind of like put it in something that kind of like blows up in my face and I lose all my retirement money. And my brokerage account is kind of just, it’s a tax account, but I only put money in there that I put in there so I can kind of gain experience with buying stocks and selling stocks and stuff like that.

15:50 George: So, and now that I think about it, one other thing that I learned from my class is that, when I’m looking at stocks and stuff, there are these things called like target-date retirement kinds of funds, which is like kind of nice. And I plan when I make my manual Roth, I actually planned a large part of it to be a target-date fund, which will kind of like change based on how close I am to retirement. And so after I did all of that, I kind of like started thinking about like different things that I learned about in my class that I should think about when I’m kind of like investing my brokerage account. Like don’t invest what I’m not willing to lose. And like, if you don’t understand it, don’t invest in it. And I started kind of like building up my portfolio and now I have like a pretty decent nest egg. So, I’m pretty proud of how I’ve gotten so far in the last few months.

Choosing a Robo-Advisor

16:42 Emily: I know, you haven’t even started graduate school yet. I mean, which is arguably I guess not a job, and you’re just getting out of undergrad, and I don’t know, it’s a fabulous amount of progress that you’ve made in this time. Which robo-advisor did you choose to start with?

16:57 George: Oh, so I actually chose Betterment. So, there are several different websites, I think there’s NerdWallet, that kind of review all these different things. Something else I learned from my class is don’t take it from one source alone, kind of go to multiple different sources and then based on all the sources together, make a decision. And kind of like across the board people suggested Betterment. So, I kind of went with Betterment since it had such great reviews all across the board.

17:31 Emily: Mhm. I think, I don’t know specifically, this is true for Betterment. It might be because you chose them. But one of the advantages that robo-advisors have is that they often have $0 minimums to start investing. So, it’s a great place like you’re doing when you’re just at the very, very start of your journey to use something like that, as you were saying, sort of some more familiarity, get some experience. And then you can switch over as you were planning on doing to a Roth IRA that you manage yourself through one of like the discount brokerage firms, like Vanguard, Fidelity, Schwab. I’m sure you’re looking at one of those three, if not something similar, for once you switch, but those often have some kind of minimum. So, I know like my strategy when I started my Roth IRA was I started with Fidelity because they, at that time, they waived their minimum if you had a $50 per month automated investing plan. So, I did that until I had $3,000 and then I switched over to Vanguard, because that’s where I really wanted to be, once I had the Vanguard $3,000 minimum. So, it sounds like you’re probably doing something similar with your robo-advisor to, you know, a Roth IRA that you’ll manage yourself strategy. Is that right?

18:34 George: Yeah. And there are like multiple different reasons as well. Like a big one is like the minimum so that like I could start investing now so that even if it’s a little bit, I could still start growing my investments. And also, when I get to a decent amount, I’ll be able to get, like, I think there are minimums in mutual funds as well. So, it’s like in order to invest in mutual funds, you need to have a certain amount of money. I’m not there yet. So, I think I’ll keep it in my Robo fund, which is kind of very low expense. Very kind of like, easy to, well, not low expenses–you can put as little money there as possible, and then it starts going in investments. But I feel like with the robo-advisors, I don’t want to keep it in there too long because they have these expense ratios. And if I have a large amount of money, I kind of start eating at my investments. But I think early on in the process that this was the best decision for me.

19:25 Emily: Yeah. And expense ratio, for those in the audience who haven’t started investing yet, is a representation. It’s a percentage representation of the total cost of owning whatever the investment is. So, with something like a robo-advisor, they usually add to the expense ratio of the underlying funds that you buy. Maybe about a 0.25% fee, which is sort of low. It sounds like pretty low. But you can get quite a bit lower if you just manage it yourself. Like you’re planning on doing, you know, in a few months or a year or whatever. You can get down under like 0.1%, 0.05%, even down to 0% expense ratios. So, there are very, very low expense ratios out there, even though the robo-advising fee doesn’t sound very high. Over time, as you were saying, it really does add up. Whatever you’re paying in expenses compounds, as we were talking about earlier, and it could end up being quite a bit of money over your entire investing lifetime. But your plan sounds really great to me. It sounds like you’ve gone about it in a totally intelligent way. So, that’s awesome.

Commercial

20:27 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. I am just bursting with this news. I have launched a Community for Personal Finance for PhDs. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to level up their practice of personal finance by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products I’ve made in the past. And I’m going to add new trainings to that library every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, a book club, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the Community is going to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.com/community to find out even more. If you’re listening to this in real-time, you have the opportunity to become a founding member of the Community at a discount. The price is going up on August 15th, 2020, so don’t delay. Go to pfforphds.com/community for all the details. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

George’s Financial Resources Document

21:47 Emily: Could you share like why you created the document that you did? Because I think it came out of the course, right? What you were learning from the course?

21:57 George: Yeah so, I was learning all the different stuff and I started kind of looking up all these different, like websites and I found your website and many other websites and I started bookmarking them. And then, since I was kind of so engrossed with it, I would talk about it. So, I’m a McNair scholar at University of Central Florida, and we’re in this kind of like community together. And I always talk about it to other McNair scholars, and they ask me for advice, they ask me, “Oh, what can I learn about this?” And then I would kind of like blow them up with links. And I didn’t think it was kind of the best way to go about it. So, I decided to make an easy to read document with like the links, kind of like embedded in words.

22:36 George: So, you can read through it in kind of a relaxing way, and then click a link if you want to learn more about what I was talking about. And then I posted this in our McNair group chat. But then I thought it would be nice for other people to use this as well as they wanted to. So, I posted it on my Twitter, and I think a few people were able to like use it to learn more about personal finance.

22:58 Emily: Yeah. And we’ll link to the document in the show notes as well because I thought it was really well put together. So, thank you for doing that. Thank you for that, like, community service.

Factors in Choosing a Graduate School

23:06 Emily: Okay. So, now we’re in the spring semester, you have, you know, you have applied to your fellowships, you’ve applied to graduate school. You’re being admitted to different programs. And of course, you know, we’re considering a lot of things when we choose a graduate program, the quality of the research, the mentor that you might work with, maybe overall the program, the structure of it, where it’s located and so forth. But you know, the stipend, I think should be one of those considerations. Did you factor in the finances when you were choosing which graduate program to attend, or were you able to make the decision based on those other factors?

23:41 George: So, I applied to like nine graduate schools, and I think from eliminating the first ones, it was mostly based on like the research and like the faculty and the resources and stuff like that. But then when I got to the end, it was kind of hard to decide. It was a very hard decision. And when I was down to two, like based on cost of living of the two areas, the stipends were very similar, the research interests were really similar. Like everything was very similar. So, it was kind of hard to kind of make that decision. So, I think what it came down to was kind of two things. The first thing was that one school was kind of like calling me and checking up on me, answering my questions and that kind of like had a really good impact on me.

24:27 George: But then the last thing is that the school that I decided to go to, which is Stanford, they offered transitioning costs. So, like transitioning funds. So, I think transitioning to grad, I mean, I haven’t done it yet, but I’ve heard that transitioning to grad school can be really expensive. So, that they offered kind of some funds to allow me to kind of like take that stress off of me was kind of like, I think that’s what kind of pushed me to choose Stanford since it was a really hard decision.

24:58 Emily: I think that’s an excellent, I mean it’s a really, really good insight into your decision-making process. It sounds like, you know, these final two schools, it was really close. What tipped you over was, you know, people at Stanford were really attentive to you, checking up on you, and then they offered you this moving fund. And I mean, that’s something that graduate programs should know about. If something that minor, a few thousand dollars I assume?

25:19 George: It was actually $500.

Consider Stipends AND Cost of Living

25:20 Emily: Oh, $500? Okay. Right. So, $500, which is like nothing to the graduate programs, could tip an excellent candidate like you, you know, you won this outside fellowship, you’re bringing in money. If something like offering you $500 could tip the scales in their favor, that’s something that they all should be doing, frankly, at this point. So, I think you mentioned something in there really quickly, but I believe you said something like after you factored in the cost of living of the two different places, the stipends were similar, is that right? So the stipends themselves weren’t actually the same, but they were similar to another, once you factored in the cost of living, is that right? Can you talk about how you did that?

25:57 George: Yeah. So, like the cost of living at Stanford is much higher. So, the two schools, I guess, were Stanford and Cornell. So, the cost of living in Palo Alto is much higher than the cost of living in Ithaca, New York. So, the Stanford stipend was much higher than the Cornell stipend, but there are different websites where you can put in the location. I think it’s a cost of living calculator. You could put in the location where you plan to live and then the money that you’ll be bringing in, and there are also like tax calculators, because there are different tax rules. So, you can calculate how much tax will be coming out of your stipend. They can calculate how your stipend compares if you were to live in another area. And I kind of compared the two stipends and they were very similar, like almost identical, once you took into consideration cost of living. So, I couldn’t really use that as a reason to choose one over the other.

26:53 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for pointing that out. Like, I mean, even, you know, I also was sort of getting into personal finance in the year that I was applying to graduate school, and I didn’t even do that step that you did of taking that into consideration. I was just kind of looking at, “Oh, the stipends are all sort of similar. I don’t know. I assume the cities are different, but I never sat down and like actually did that little, little bit of math that you did. So, it’s a great idea just for the audience, anyone else going through this. I really like to use the MIT Living Wage database or calculator, livingwage.mit.edu. And it shows you what the living wage is for every, you know, county or metro city area in the U.S. And so, that’s the factor that I like to use.

27:31 Emily: That’s what we use in phdstipends.com, which is my database website where people enter their stipends and then we do this little division, like you were just saying, of divide the stipend by the local cost of living from this database and spit out this like factor, you know, is it more than one? Is it less than one? So, exactly what you were doing, maybe using a different calculator, but I think it’s really, really smart.

Housing Budget and Taxes

27:51 Emily: So, okay. You’ve chosen to go to Sanford, and you already were just mentioning some of the basic building blocks of the budget that you’ll have once you start graduate school. Like you were talking about taking into consideration how much your taxes are going to be. And I know that you’ve been preparing a budget over this summer before you’re moving to Palo Alto. So, can you talk about that process a little bit, and also about your decision around housing?

28:12 George: Yeah. So, I started my budget already. So, the first thing that I kind of took out of my budget was taxes. Because what I kind of like found out that was pretty surprising is that they don’t take taxes out of fellowships. So, like your income tax will be kind of just like given to you and you’re expected to know that it’s supposed to be paid back in taxes.

Quarterly Taxes on Non-W-2 Income

28:34 Emily: Okay. Let’s pause there because I think we need to emphasize that. At most universities, it sounds like it’s Stanford included, if you’re receiving a fellowship, which is what I call non-W-2 income. So, fellowship, training grant, this kind of income. Very likely, they will not be withholding income tax for you, as a domestic student. For international students, they do. So, let’s emphasize that again. You are receiving your entire paycheck, but that does not mean that you get to keep all of that. Part of that is going to go back to the IRS in the form of income taxes, which you may have to pay quarterly. I’ll link in the show notes to my resources on that. It’s probably ones that you found, George, as you were doing this research. But yeah, please keep going. I just wanted to, like–we don’t want to gloss over that. Like, you will probably end up paying income tax and you have to do it yourself. It’s not done for you. And it’s a process that a lot of people just completely miss and they have an ugly surprise when they get to their taxes after their first year of graduate school.

29:30 George: Yeah. And actually, I plan to do quarterly taxes as well. So, I was kind of like putting it together so that every month, like I kind of calculated how much taxes I would owe at the end, and then I divided that by 12. And then I would kind of like save that amount of money every single month. So, when it comes to that time, when I have to pay my quarterly tax, I already have it in my savings account and I can just pay it. But that’s the first thing I kind of put away. And then I went to my housing. So, at Stanford, they have housing on campus which is subsidized. So, it’s kind of nice that I was able to kind of apply to housing at Stanford.

30:06 George: So, I kind of looked at all the housing options, and out all of the ones that I liked, I kind of picked the highest monthly rent, and I put that in my budget. And I was thinking that, if I get a lower one, I could just change that in my budget. It will be easier to change to lower than to higher. So, that was kind of my thought process on that. And then with my budget, I tried to make it so that it’s not a budget that I kind of don’t like looking at. So, I kind of like, as I said before, like I tried to find out how I spend my own money and I tried to make a budget that I can comfortably live within the budget, and I gave myself some breathing room.

30:44 George: I wanted my budget to be kind of pleasant to live on so I don’t kind of like break my budget. So, I kind of was thinking like, “Okay, I spent this much on food. Let me give myself a little breathing room since I can kind of like afford to do that.” And then I also put some money in there for shopping. I put some money in there for transportation because I don’t plan to bring my car with me my first year. And then I also put like 20 to 25% away for investments. So, kind of like putting stuff into my savings accounts, putting stuff into my Roth IRA. And then for my brokerage account, I don’t plan to put monthly in there until I have a good amount in my savings account, but then I plan to start putting monthly into my brokerage account. For now, I’ll just kind of like, if I have some money from the money I put away for shopping and for like kind of random stuff, I’ll buy some stocks if I feel like I want to, but it won’t be like a monthly thing that I put money specifically away for yet. But that’s kind of like what I decided to put in my budget.

Ranking Housing Options

31:53 Emily: I want to go back just to the housing point for a second, because I think you’ve made a really good decision, which was like, okay, so you’re applying for all this, you know, subsidized on-campus housing. You account in your budget for the highest possible rent you would be paying. But is that actually how it turned out? Like what housing did you, when you were saying where you wanted to live, was that the one that you put at the top of your list? Or like how did you rank order that list and what did you actually get into?

32:18 George: So, I ranked the list, so there’s like really new housing that’s coming out. It’s going to actually debut this fall semester. So, I put that at the top of my list and that was actually the most expensive, and I was able to get it. So, I didn’t change my budget, but I also had these different ones that were a little bit older, but they had good amenities. They would have good spacing. And I actually got the tour it when I was at my interview. So, I would be fine living with it. It’s not like I would be like, “Oh, I can’t live here and I’ll have to live somewhere else.” So, that’s how I ranked it.

32:53 George: But, there were other options that were really, really expensive. So, I kind of listed those. They say to list everything, so I listed them, but they were like in 30th place, like it was kind of ridiculous how much they cost. So, I tried to kind of combine quality, but also the cost of living because I feel like housing, I think when I was reading my budgeting you should try to keep housing as close to 50% as possible. My housing is a little bit, it’s still over 50%, but I think it’s kind of difficult to kind of get 50% or lower as a grad student. So, I tried to get as close to that as possible. And with some of the other housing, it was like well over 50%. So, I tried to take into consideration that I should try to be close to 50%, if at all possible.

33:43 Emily: Yeah, I think I don’t know exactly what you were learning in the course, but according to the balanced money formula, which is a framework that I like to reference, you should keep all of your necessary expenses below 50% of your net income, which is really, really challenging to do on a graduate student stipend and also on a graduate student stipend in a high cost of living area, which is what you’re doing. So, it’s not surprising at all to me that even you, you know, making a prudent housing choice, it’s still over 50% of your income. That is pretty common for graduate students in high cost of living areas. But yeah, so it sounds like you were, you know, really thinking through both the finances and the lifestyle that you wanted to have with that housing decision. So, super happy that you were, you know, really intentional about that.

Long-Term Emergency Savings Goals

34:29 Emily: And you were mentioning just now, like some of your financial goals for your finances in graduate school. You mentioned that you were going to be saving/investing 20 to 25% of your income and then possibly doing a little bit more investing if you wanted to at any particular time. And I think you also mentioned earlier that you wanted to save up an emergency fund of nine months of expenses. Is that right? Is that your ultimate goal?

34:54 George: Yeah, I’m trying to, one day I hope to get to nine months. So, I would say my kind of goals for personal finance and graduate school, in particular, are kind of modest. I’m not looking to have like a huge, huge thing by the time I graduate. I hope to kind of like build habits and get into the habit of kind of like investing, get into the habit of staying on my budget, getting into the habit of putting money away monthly. Because like in undergrad, I didn’t have any of those habits, and I think that’s something I’m going to have to kind of build. And also, have at least like three months, hopefully nine months, of my emergency fund. Because I know that emergencies are emergencies and I doubt I won’t have any emergencies in graduate school.

35:37 George: So, hopefully by the time I graduate, I’ll have at least three months, hopefully nine months. And then kind of have a decent amount in my kind of Roth IRA as well as in my brokerage account, and that I’ve kind of stayed consistent throughout the five, six, or maybe seven years that I’ll be doing my PhD of monthly, always, putting some money away and not falling into blowing money on stuff. But also giving me that kind of flexibility to have fun and to do things that I find kind of amusing so that I don’t get too stressed through graduate school.

36:13 Emily: I think that’s such an excellent point that you made. Like yes, it would be great to come out of graduate school with savings, with investments, with a nice nest egg. That’s what happened for me. My husband and I defended with quite a good nest egg, and it was really fabulous for our subsequent life. But, the more important thing, actually, is the habit formation. And it’s sort of changing your–like becoming a person who budgets, becoming a person who invests. Now, I know I said earlier that it matters a whole lot. Like if you do that with a small amount of money, it’s great, and yes, that’s true. But, even more powerful is the habit. And so, when you have that nice post-PhD salary, and you’re already in the habit of investing or you’re in the habit of saving, you can then apply those habits to that fabulous higher income and really make some fast progress with your, you know, financial goals.

Any Other Goals for Grad School?

37:02 Emily: So, I think that was such a good point that you made, and even for people who aren’t able to do what you plan on doing, which is still, you know, saving and investing during graduate school. Even getting into the habit of budgeting, like that can be a great goal for your time during graduate school is just to make those changes in yourself and who you are. Even if you aren’t able to come out with more savings, again, once you have the post-PhD income, you’ll be able to keep applying those habits and really make some fast progress. So, such an excellent point, George. Any other goals you have for graduate school, aside from the ones that we just talked about?

37:37 George: I guess like, I mean, there are like nonfinancial goals, like kind of building like skills and kind of building my network and traveling and learning all the different stuff from different people. But financial-wise, I just hope to kind of pay as little in taxes as possible, learn how to file my own taxes. Kind of learn like all the financial things that I need to know to kind of like succeed. I think for my brokerage account, I’ll be kind of investing. I think the money in there is probably going to be used as a down payment on a house in the future. That’s kind of like, well far off, but I’m kind of thinking, “Oh, I’m investing in my brokerage account. I’ll probably use it to kind of buy a house or have some money towards a house.” Kind of things like that. Those are kind of like the goals I’m thinking of, but I don’t really have like super hard, concrete stuff yet. But those are kind of the things I’ve been thinking about.

38:30 Emily: Yeah. I think it’s great that you identified like, “Okay, I know it’s important to have an emergency fund.” You’re going build that up. “I know it’s important to save for retirement. I’m going to build that up.” And then, “Okay, whatever else comes, I have this other brokerage account, you know, other savings I can use for that. If it’s a house down payment, if it’s something else.” I think that’s a great way to structure your finances when you have a lot of unknowns in the future, as is very, very common for PhDs, because we never know where we’re going to live. You know, after, it’s a lot of uncertainty that we live with kind of longterm.

38:59 Emily: But George, it was a real pleasure to talk with you today. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing this beginning part of your journey. I hope that we’ll catch up with you again in maybe a few months or a year and see if it’s all panning out the way you thought it would. Thank you so much for sharing your insight.

39:15 George: Yeah, no problem. It was a pleasure to be able to talk about it.

Outtro

39:17 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This PhD Entrepreneur Advocates for Universal Basic Income (Part 2)

May 11, 2020 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jim Pugh, the founder of ShareProgress and co-host of the Basic Income Podcast. Jim defines universal basic income and outlines how it would alleviate poverty and other social ills, including results from research and real-life experiments with basic income. He describes the possible avenues by which universal basic income could be funded and whether it would replace our existing social safety nets. Jim and Emily speculate about how universal basic income might affect higher education funding, including PhD stipends and postdoc salaries, and PhD trainees themselves.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Jim: You could basically think of this as universal basic fellowships for PhD students because I think that the dynamics that come with it very, very closely would match what it would be if you were getting a fellowship of the same size.

Introduction

00:18 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode two, and today my guest is Dr. Jim Pugh, the founder of ShareProgress and cohost of The Basic Income Podcast. In this second half of our interview, Jim articulates what basic income is and how it would alleviate poverty in the United States, including results from recent research and experimentation. He describes the possible avenues by which it could be funded and whether it would replace our existing social safety nets. We speculate about how basic income might affect higher education, including PhD stipends and postdoc salaries. Without further ado, here’s the second part of my interview with Dr. Jim Pugh.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:06 Emily: We’re back now with part two of my interview with Dr. Jim Pugh. In part one, he told us all about how he started a business a few years after graduate school, which ultimately allowed him a great deal of time freedom. So, his business pays for his lifestyle, but he only works at this point about five hours a week on the business. And that has allowed him to pivot to his advocacy work around universal basic income, which is what we’re going to be hearing a lot more about today. So, Jim, thank you so much for continuing this interview with me. And we want to start off with a basic question about universal basic income because frankly, I probably would not have really heard about this except that you and I are Facebook friends. And also, we’re recording this in September, 2019 and Andrew Yang is a candidate for the democratic nomination for president. So, between those two things, I’ve kind of heard a little bit about basic income, but I would love to hear a lot more about what it actually is from you.

01:59 Jim: Sure. Well, so, just to start with the definition. A universal basic income is a policy that would provide every single person in the country with unconditional cash payments regularly–most people talk about once a month–that’s actually enough to cover basic needs. And the idea of it is that, if you were to enact this, you eradicate absolute poverty. You’re ensuring that everyone does have enough money to cover the fundamentals. And so, in some ways it’s very, very simple because it’s just giving people some cash. But in other ways, we’re potentially talking about something very radical because we would for the first time be saying, we are fully abolishing absolute poverty. We’re saying that absolutely no one in the country should be poor and that we’re going to structure our systems with that in mind. And so the ramifications of that are pretty profound as far as what does it mean for work? What does it mean for health? What does it mean for people’s general lifestyle if you’re actually establishing that fundamental financial security floor?

Benefits of Universal Basic Income (UBI)

03:12 Emily: Okay, so let’s first take the benefits–the upsides of this–and let’s leave aside, for the moment, the practicalities of it, but just to talk about the vision for what this society might be like. So, what are the benefits that people might experience maybe who are currently in poverty but would be lifted out of that through UBI? You started to talk about this a little bit at the end of the last episode. So, there’s actually been research done in this area and there’s been some experimentation. So, can you talk a little about what we know already about how this might change things for people?

03:43 Jim: Yeah, so I think there are the obvious things that we know when people are poor, they can’t afford food or at least healthy food. They may be having trouble finding somewhere to live. They may not be able to take care of themselves. So, if you’re actually ensuring that everyone is up above the poverty line through just regular cash transfers, those are all things that are addressed, first order of facts. But I think beyond that, that’s where things start to get quite interesting because we have seen more and more evidence around how poverty and financial insecurity, if not causing, are at least are greatly contributing to a lot of other issues that we’re dealing with today. And so, people when they are approaching any aspect of their life, they can either be in an abundance mentality where they think, “Okay, I have enough. I can think bigger picture.” Or a scarcity mentality where they feel constrained, which basically gives people tunnel vision that they’re only thinking about what’s right in front of them.

Abundance Mindset, Higher IQ

04:51 Jim: And that difference has huge impacts on what happens to people. So, first off, there have been studies just looking at general intelligence, and there is a substantial shift in people’s IQ level between those two different headspaces. I think it’s around one standard deviation, so about 10 IQ points, smarter when you’re in an abundance mindset as opposed to a scarcity mindset. So, you’re making better decisions. Second, as I said, when you get that tunnel vision and so it means you’re just thinking about what’s right in front of you, it basically prevents you from longterm planning. You can’t be thinking about, “What is my life going to be even a year, much less, five, 10 years down the road?” if you’re worried about, Oh, how am I going to put food on the table tonight or tomorrow? And so, it allows people and encourages people to plan better, to make better longterm decisions which has big impacts around choices on education, choices around what sort of work they pursue, and ultimately, where they do end up in five, 10 years down the road.

Scarcity Mindset Damages Mental and Physical Health

05:58 Jim: And so, beyond just being able to afford health treatments, there’s also a lot of evidence that when you’re in a scarcity mindset, when you’re in poverty, it’s extremely damaging for mental health. And also for physical health, the stress has an impact on that as well. Crime–strong, strong correlation based on people’s financial security as to whether they’re more or less likely to commit crimes. And so there’s all of these second and third order implications around how things would look in our society if we weren’t to have this absolute poverty. That’s seems incredibly promising. And so, that’s why, again, our typical approach as a society is to, when something’s going wrong, to treat the symptoms of it. And this, instead, is really saying, “Let’s actually try to take a step back, deal with some of the underlying causes, and see how much easier that makes dealing with all the rest of this stuff.”

UBI and Job Flexibility

07:00 Emily: Okay. Sounds amazing. It sounds very, very compelling. I’m wondering a little bit more about what the vision for what this society may look like, should we bring it about. You talked earlier about jobs. And so, is the idea that not as many people would need to work? There wouldn’t necessarily be as many people in jobs? Or is the idea that you would have just more freedom and flexibility around when you want to work and when you went to have further training? How does this relate to the jobs, I guess is what I’m asking?

07:28 Jim: I think much more the latter. So, the idea is not that this is something that’s going to replace jobs wholesale. I think it does allow you to pursue a more general definition of work, I would say. And so, in the sense that “job” right now means a fairly specific thing in those conversations about more like a nine to five, like ongoing, consistent workplace. This does give you additional flexibility to think a bit differently about what is the right form of work for you to be doing. So, whether that’s part-time, whether that’s taking some time to get more of an education in the area that ultimately is going to allow you to do something that you feel better about and maybe much more productive for society. Whether it’s going to give you the flexibility if you want to do some sort of family care or staying home with children or elderly folks.

UBI Facilitates Entrepreneurship

08:25 Jim: Another one is entrepreneurship. If you’re considering starting a company or doing something that, in its early stages, may not be giving you a steady paycheck–having more flexibility around that as well. So, it opens up all these doors that most folks, I would say, don’t really have access to at this point in time. As far as overall impact on how much people are working, there have actually been a number of studies on this. And what it suggests is the results vary. That there are certain situations where, when you give people regular, unconditional cash, they work more. It seems like, either through stimulating the local economy and creating jobs or by giving people that flexibility, they end up doing more work. So, Alaska for the last 40 years has actually had a universal income provided by oil in the state. And recent studies have found that the overall work rate hasn’t changed, but you see a lot more people engaging in part-time work than you have in the past. Or, certain groups, studies have found there is a decrease in work, quite consistently actually across studies. The ones where that’s only really stood out is parents with young children and teenagers, basically. And interviewing folks involved in that, it seems like the former is spending more time staying home with kids, the latter spending more time at school. So, again, it’s not captured as work in how we measure it today, but it actually is work and potentially much more pro-social work than they might otherwise be engaged in.

10:06 Emily: So, this is really reminding me of–so I have not read this book. The book is Your Money or Your Life by Vicky Robin, I want to say. And she has a coauthor. Anyway, I heard a podcast interview with her within the last few weeks and she was talking about how in our current society, like you’re saying, there’s a lot of work that is not inside a job, right? There’s a lot of work that people do in our society to further it. A lot of women do this kind of work and it’s not valued in terms of a paycheck from a job, right? That doesn’t mean it’s not contributing to society. And so, I don’t remember if they specifically talked about basic income on that podcast, but this is a way to sort of reframe what counts as work and what counts as doing something valuable with your time.

UBI and Social Safety Nets

10:51 Emily: Yeah. Okay. So, I think I’m getting you here. I have another question: would this replace the social safety nets that we have currently and expand them, I guess you could say?

11:03 Jim: So, there are mixed opinions on this amongst people who advocate for basic income. I’m actually in the camp saying that this should not initially be treated as a replacement for any social programs. And I think the reasons are: one, is that I think there is widespread recognition across the political spectrum that our social safety net is not working as well as we would like it to. You get very different opinions as to what would allow it to work as well as we would like it to. But no one is satisfied with where it’s at. I think a lot of people have talked about, “Let’s provide basic income and then just cut much, if not all, of other social programs because this will eradicate absolute poverty. Why do we need to worry about anything else?” And there are actually, I would say, a lot of edge cases here where it’s people who are dealing with some specific challenge for which cash on its own is not going to quickly solve it. It will help a lot in many situations. But I think there is the risk that if you say, “All right, we’ll get rid of this other stuff and just give you cash,” you’ve basically taken a problem that requires multiple parts to solve and just replaced one part with another. And, in some cases, maybe they keep people worse off because of that.

Targeted Interventions Beyond UBI

12:25 Emily: Can you be more specific about what is being provided to people now that’s not money?

12:29 Jim: Yeah. So, I think disability being a good one where disabilities can look very different for different sorts of people. And in some cases, the support you would need to actually be able to live with disabilities requires much more than what a basic income would provide. And so, that’s a case where, if someone were to say, “We’re going to wipe everything off the books and just give you that,” a lot of people in that situation are going to be left far worse off. I think there are specific issues around addiction, in some situations, housing assistance where there is obviously there are areas where housing is far, far more expensive. And so, to think that a national UBI would actually be enough for people in the Bay Area to be able to get by, it’s not realistic. And so, that’s a situation where a targeted intervention beyond the UBI is going to be important.

13:22 Jim: And then I think there are other ones where it may be some general challenge where someone’s falling out of the workforce or coming back from deployment abroad where, again, making sure that they have enough cash is important, but there are additional services that come beyond that that also much better set them up to succeed than the cash on its own. And so, I think that that’s a key thing here is to recognize both how transformative and valuable UBI could be, but also that it’s not a panacea. It’s not a silver bullet. It’s something that will need an ecosystem of additional supports if we actually want to have an effective safety net. And so, I don’t think the safety net that we have right now is doing that well enough, and we need to be rethinking that. But I think that there’s a danger when people say, “UBI instead of that,” that we throw the baby out with the bathwater and end up in a situation where people may be much worse off than they are today.

Regional Cost of Living Considerations

14:25 Emily: Yeah. I think because this is, I don’t necessarily want to say it’s a new idea. I mean, you said Alaska has been doing something like this for 40 years, but it’s gained maybe national attention only in recent years. So, this is still an idea that’s being worked out. And at the policy level, if viable, we don’t know exactly what the ultimate solution would look like. And presumably, it would change over decades and generations anyway. So, I’m glad you brought up the cost of living question. Because the U.S. is very diverse in terms of cost of living. Is the ultimate idea still that people would get the same amount of money no matter where they live? Maybe with some additional help, like you were just saying, for certain people in certain areas?

Psychological Implications

15:05 Jim: So yeah, a key part of it is–and I don’t think I said in my original definition, but the idea is–this would be the same amount to everyone. And there are a couple reasons for that. One is logistical that it becomes much easier to manage if it’s the same for everyone. But the other is more psychological. One of the reasons for taking a universal approach is to try to eliminate stigma associated with receiving support, which in our modern age, we all see how much stigma is associated with receiving various forms of welfare. And that, if it’s something that everyone in society is getting, you’re able to get around that. Because why is it wrong for the homeless person on the street to get the check every month if I’m also getting my check every month?

Regional Supplements

15:52 Jim: And so, that’s another reason to have the equal, universal amount. But as you say, what that means is that in particularly different regions across the country, you’re going to see big differences as far as the implications of that. So, there certainly are parts of the country where if you were giving everyone a thousand dollars a month, you can survive without too much difficulty. If you’re in the Bay Area or other places, that does not get you very far. And so, that’s an area where you do need to have something beyond that. There’s been some discussion around regional supplements where you might be able to top up a equal federal amount with something that goes up more for more expensive areas. But I think beyond that, yeah, there may be other targeted interventions that are important.

UBI Increases Mobility

16:46 Jim: I think one question that comes up that we don’t really have a good answer to but people wonder about is, if you’re providing the basic income to everyone, it is going to increase people’s mobility. And so, if you currently feel tied to a certain geography for economic reasons, which may be very expensive, whether that gives you the option to relocate to somewhere that is less expensive. And then that gets very complicated because it goes into community ties and family and things like that where there may be other factors beyond just the economics of it. But it’s something that would be different if we did this and so, potentially, that at least partially would help to mitigate some of those challenges.

Commercial

17:35 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. I bet you and your peers are hungry for financial information right now, especially if it’s tailored for your unique PhD experience. I offer seminars, webinars, and workshops on personal finance for early career PhDs that can be billed as professional development or personal wellness programming. My events cover a wide range of personal finance topics or take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you’re interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. We can absolutely find a way to get this great content to you and your peers even while social distancing. Now, back to our interview.

The Basic Income Podcast

18:34 Emily: I feel like I could continue asking you questions about this for quite a long time. It’s a good thing you have a podcast where other people can learn more about this. What is the name of your podcast?

18:45 Jim: Our name is a bit on the nose. We are The Basic Income Podcast. We’ve been introducing weekly episodes for about three years now and exploring both UBI specifically, but also, how it relates and connects to all sorts of other areas.

How to Fund UBI in the U.S.

19:00 Emily: Okay. So, I’m going to hold off on the questions that are still swirling in my head and just say, listeners, if you’re excited about this idea, or skeptical of it, or whatever, go ahead and check out the podcast and I’m sure there are other resources that you refer to from there where people can continue to learn even more. So, one more question around the vision of this, which is should we all, or enough of us in the United States, decide this is a good idea, what actually does it look like to fund this? Maybe post-transition, if there is a transition.

Enact Changes to the Tax Code

19:32 Jim: Yeah, so that’s another area where people have very different opinions around. Because, I mean, if we’re looking at it on its face saying, “All right, everyone in the country gets a thousand dollars a month,” that’s about $4 trillion, which is the size of our current governmental spending, which seems insane. But there are various caveats, I would say, that make it much more achievable than it may seem at a glance. My preferred approach to financing is first to recognize that, if you’re going to enact universal basic income, it means you need to make some significant differences in the tax code. And specifically, as a starting point, I think income tax. At its core, the goal of UBI is to provide people with financial security. And so, what that means is that, knowing you’re always going to get your check every month is important because who knows what may happen to you. And having it always there gives you that security.

20:31 Jim: But, if you’re earning a good paycheck, there’s no reason why you should be coming out net ahead, necessarily. And so, to basically update our income tax brackets such that, once people make above a certain point, their UBI is effectively being taxed away. So, maybe that’s four times the poverty level. So, if you as an individual are earning more than 50 or $60,000 a year, basically, you’d be getting your check every month and then you’d be paying a bit more in taxes to cover that expense. If you do it that way and look at what’s eventually the net cost, it drops to somewhere between 500 billion and a trillion dollars a year, which is still a lot, but a lot less than the four trillion we started with.

Shift Tax Programs and Brackets

21:18 Jim: And so, then there are different ideas as to how do you pay for that. That’s much more in line with other somewhat ambitious governmental programs. You can couple together some combination of a carbon tax, the financial transaction tax, a wealth tax. And sort of talking more about that, Elizabeth Warren wrote it up in her campaign where you’re able to raise that amount of money to cover that difference. And also, I think potentially looking at adding a few tax brackets at the top of the income level. If we were to go back to the taxation we had pre-Reagan, that would be bringing in a substantial amount there. So, with those things combined, you can relatively easily actually be able to cover the cost.

UBI and Graduate Training

22:02 Emily: Okay. Very, very interesting. So, I wanted to pivot a little bit to tie this really into more of our PhD audience because we haven’t brought that up so far really. I mean, you mentioned earlier that you know, having a basic income could afford people the flexibility to do more training. Of course, PhDs have a lot of that. Have you given any thought, or has there been any discussion around this, how basic income–I’m sure it’s been discussed at the undergraduate level, how that would affect people pursuing college degrees? You can speak about that a little bit if you like, but I am curious about what you think about how it might affect PhD training in the United States. And specifically, you know, you brought up earlier the scarcity mindset and how that prevented people from thinking longterm and it caused an effective IQ drop.

22:45 Emily: And in season four of this podcast, I published a two-part interview with Dr. Lucie Bland and she talked about her scarcity mindset that she developed during her PhD because she was living in poverty during her PhD. She was funded at a very low level. She lives in a very expensive city, and it’s something that a lot of people can relate to during their graduate training. Although you wouldn’t necessarily think about graduate students, a relatively privileged bunch, I would expect, necessarily being beneficiaries of basic income. But maybe during that training period, they are. So, can you just speak a little bit about that?

UBI and Financial Security

23:18 Jim: Well, I would actually just add on to that. What we’re seeing in the Bay Area right now is not only at the graduate student level, but actually the assistant professor level, in some places, that people are homeless. They can’t afford to live here. So, they’re living out of their cars. Yeah, I mean I think that it’s giving you that layer of financial security, which should help with that. I think, not just because it’s some extra money, but because it would be extra money not tied your employment education situation. And obviously this is not everyone, hopefully a small minority, but if you’re having some bad power dynamics with your professor and feeling like you don’t want to be working with him or her but are not able to step away because of finances you’re receiving from there, it gives you kind of that out knowing that, regardless of what you decide there, you have that income coming in otherwise.

Parallel: UBI and Fellowship Income

24:15 Emily: So, there’s actually a slight parallel there, actually with fellowship income, right? And you did your PhD outside of the state, so, maybe it’s a little bit different there. But here with fellowship income, you know, it’s an award that you receive as an individual. It’s based on your own merits. And so, it’s not necessarily tied to you staying in one person’s lab. And so, I again, I publish an interview in season four where someone was able to switch labs, did not have a good relationship with their first advisor, was able to switch labs partially because she received an NSF graduate research fellowship. And so, similar situation, right? If, you know you can go a few months and transition without a paycheck coming from your advisor, it gives you more freedom there to really seek out the situation that is going to support you best as a developing researcher. So, yeah. Excellent point there. Please continue.

24:59 Jim: Yeah. Well, I was going to say, I think you just nailed it. You could basically think of this as universal basic fellowships for PhD students because I think that, yeah, I think the dynamics that come with it very, very closely with match what it would be if you were getting a fellowship of the same size. I mean obviously with the added flexibility that you could leave a PhD program and still have it. But as far as the context within graduate school, I think that that’s basically what it would be.

25:27 Emily: Just to explore that a little bit further. Because I do think it’s a good analogy. So, one of the great things about fellowship income is that it gives you more freedom in your research, right? So, if you’re not beholden to working on a specific grant for your advisor, like you often are in STEM fields if you have a research assistantship. The fellowship allows you more intellectual flexibility and pursuing projects that are more in line with your own goals. It allows you to pursue collaborations. It’s just a greater degree of freedom. Now, some advisors exact more or less control when they do have people on a grant for research assistantships. That’s sort of up to their discretion. But yeah, the flexibility there in terms of your intellectual pursuits would then translate in terms of UBI into your general career pursuits, life pursuits. It would just be a much broader funding of that.

26:14 Jim: Yeah, I think that’s right. I think I could imagine there would also be kind of a trade-off on that versus greater financial security. Because one of the questions would be, if everyone were getting a basic income, would you still have PhD student stipends and outside fellowships at a similar level? If you would, okay, everyone’s going to be much more economically stable.

Final Thoughts on UBI and Academia

26:40 Emily: You said earlier as like a touch point that, in your vision of this, around 50 or $60,000 of income, that’s when the UBI would kind of phase out. And for the graduate student level, graduate students don’t reach that point. A lot of postdocs don’t reach that point. So, in some sense, if nothing changed on the grant side of things, then it would boost your income. But yes, the question is whether people would still be funded to the same degree given that they have that baseline. So, if the idea right now in academia is we give people just enough money to live on so they don’t have to have other jobs that distract from their PhD research, well then maybe they would just decrease that funding. So, yeah. Any other thoughts around that? I’m sure this has not been very fully explored because it’s a very niche interest.

27:24 Jim: Well, no, I think that this is a specific example of something that is much broader, which is basically, if we were to have UBI, what does that do to wages? And the theory is that it depends a lot on what type of work you’re talking about and how much there is the internal versus external motivation around doing that work. Because if someone’s only doing the work because they’re getting paid to do it, UBI actually has the potential to then increase wages because it basically gives them more leverage to say, “Oh, well I don’t actually like this work. I’m going to go pursue other options.” And a company might then have to say, “Oh, well instead of $8 an hour, we’re going to pay you $15 an hour.” On the flip side, if it’s something that people just want to be doing for other reasons, like perhaps going to graduate school since not too many people go to graduate school to get rich, then there’s the opposite potential where, if someone is basically willing to do it, assuming that they won’t be starving, then universities may say, “Okay, well you’re UBI now instead of giving you $18,000 a year, we’re going to give you six.

28:43 Jim: So, I mean, it’s a whole other topic, but I would say that that’s where unions might come in handy. But yeah, I think it’s one of those areas that it’s very, very difficult to answer and know exactly what will happen until we actually do it. So, we can hypothesize around it. But yeah, that’s an open question.

Value of Teaching and Shifting Landscape in Education

29:07 Emily: Yeah, I guess I’m also thinking about sort of we’re having larger debates and angst in academia around the value of teaching, right? Because there’s this huge adjunct workforce that is, you know, severely underpaid. They don’t have job security and yet such a huge percentage of the classes that undergraduates and graduate students take are being taught by people who are not full-time employees of the institution that they work for or institutions. And it’s just such a difficult area right now. I can definitely see how UBI would help people in that situation, right? Because they are also experiencing poverty or near poverty-like situations, many of them. But, yeah. I mean, we’re in a transition point for education broadly. Like, if we’re moving to massive online courses and so forth, maybe if your teachers are needed. I don’t know. There are just a lot of transition here. I guess when we’re talking about maybe some kinds of jobs disappearing or transitioning, teaching at the higher education level, is one of those jobs that is sort of in transition in the workforces. And so, yeah. UBI is just kind of another element to kind of throw into the mix here that we don’t really know how it’s going to play out entirely.

30:13 Jim: Yeah, I think that’s right. And this applies less, I would say. I would expect it to still apply to some degree, but on the flip side, as far as what is the responsibility of the teacher versus the student? I think, certainly at the elementary and high school level, there’s ample evidence that financial stability of the family that the students are coming from makes a big difference as far as how well they’re able to learn. And so, that’s, I would say, another wrinkle that gets thrown in here as well, where if you are ensuring that everyone who is in the class is in more of an abundance mindset, what implications does that have to what is the most effective way of educating?

Tell Us More About Your Podcast

30:55 Emily: Such an interesting topic, Jim. I think that people will definitely want to follow up with you and learn more about this. Maybe have more discussions with you around what does the potential of UBI look like in affecting higher education and graduate students and postdocs and trainees. Again, tell us a little bit more about what you do. We have the name of it, but what do you do on your podcast?

31:14 Jim: Yeah, so we cover a lot of different areas. Most of the episodes, I think like yours, feature or are centered around a guest interview on some topic. And so, we’ve covered everything from, yeah what does UBI do with the disability community, to what’s happening in Canada with UBI to digging in on some of the modern control pilots that are being done in the U.S. and abroad to what is the connection between UBI and housing? And so, it really covers a lot of different areas, but generally we bring on an expert, we chat with them, and then we talk through what are the ramifications of what they said. And so, really try to dig in a little bit on many different areas.

UBI and Healthcare, Education

32:03 Emily: So, actually one follow-up question that goes maybe more back to our earlier conversation with what does this vision look like? Does the implementation of UBI come with it or depend on a revolution within healthcare and also in higher education? You know, paying for higher education.

32:21 Jim: Yeah. So, I would say healthcare comes up a lot. And in my view, UBI can only truly be successful if we actually have truly universal healthcare because it basically counts on the assumption that you can somewhat reasonably project what is the cost of living for people across the country. In our current system. If you don’t actually have universal coverage, that is impossible. I mean we see all the time, all these cases of people having insane bills for services. And as long as that continues to happen, there’s no way to actually guarantee universal financial security. And so, I see those two things as very, very complementary and part of a whole package that we should be fighting for. And education, perhaps not quite as closely coupled, but I think if we’re talking about what is beyond just financial security, what is really setting people up for longterm success, it seems obvious that we want to make that as accessible as possible. And so, a model where everyone in society has access to higher education is certainly the way to go.

Best Financial Advice for Another PhD

33:29 Emily: Gotcha. Okay. Standard question as we wrap up here that I ask all of my guests which is what is your best financial advice for another PhD? And that could be related to something that we’ve talked about in these two episodes, or it could be something entirely new.

33:44 Jim: I mean, I think it’s just like figuring out your sustainability. So, I mean, thinking about where you’ll be going with your PhD and what is your cost of living then, but just trying to set yourself up so that you’re not heading towards a cliff somewhere, which yeah, I feel like it would look very, very different depending on your specifics.

34:06 Emily: Yeah, definitely. It’s something I talk about a lot for people who are sort of in transition, right, out of graduate school, out of the postdoc into other positions, especially when they’re moving. Make sure you understand the cost of living. As you brought up earlier, you know, in San Francisco, make sure you understand the cost of living that you’re getting into and that the salary that you’ve been offered is is appropriate for that area and negotiate if that is not your initial offer. So, thank you so much for that advice. Jim, this has been a fascinating conversation, really just the tip of the iceberg on this topic, and so thank you so much for joining me.

34:38 Jim: Yeah, I really enjoyed the conversation as well.

Outtro

34:40 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This PhD Entrepreneur Advocates for Universal Basic Income (Part 1)

May 4, 2020 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jim Pugh, the founder of ShareProgress and co-host of the Basic Income Podcast. Jim earned a PhD in computer science and subsequently worked for the Democratic National Convention and other progressive groups. He always aspired to start a business, and his post-PhD work experience inspired him to found ShareProgress, a software product and consulting service. Jim describes the evolution of his business, which now brings him sufficient income to support him in San Francisco in exchange for about 5 hours of work per week. Jim’s observations of changes in technology and the workforce while building his business and newfound time freedom drew him to investigating universal basic income.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Jim: As you’re doing something, you’ll see many other, adjacent great things to do as well, but that can so easily be a distraction from actually figuring out, “Alright, what is the core of this successful business going to look like?” And if you let yourself be pulled in that direction, it can really detract from your chance of building something big.

Introduction

00:25 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode one, and today my guest is Dr. Jim Pugh, the founder of ShareProgress and cohost of The Basic Income Podcast. Jim’s doctoral work in computer science and his experience working for the Democratic National Convention inspired him to start ShareProgress seven years ago. In this first half of our interview, we discuss the growth and evolution of his business, which now brings him sufficient income to support him in San Francisco in exchange for about five hours of work per week. Jim’s observations while building his business and newfound time-freedom drew him to investigating universal basic income. Without further ado, here’s the first part of my interview with Dr. Jim Pugh.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:15 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Jim Pugh. It’s a really special episode for me because Jim and I know each other in real life. He is the older brother of a dear friend of mine and my husband’s from college. And we actually had lunch a couple months ago when we were visiting and had gotten into this really interesting conversation about what Jim’s up to these days, the activism that he does. And it was just really exciting and I could see there was a definite PhD angle there, not just because Jim himself has a PhD but also because what he works on has implications for PhDs. So, we will get into all of that in just a few minutes. So, Jim, will you please take a moment and introduce yourself a little bit further to the listeners?

01:53 Jim: Yeah. Well Emily, thanks for having me on the podcast. My background brings together a few different areas. My academic background is in the sciences. I did my undergraduate and doctorate in computer science, specifically robotics, my doctorate. And following that, ended up getting involved in the political world. And so, I spent some time working on the 2008 Obama campaigns, spent a few years in D.C. after continuing political work out there. And then about six, seven years back decided to take honestly experiences on both those fronts to start my own company called ShareProgress, working primarily with political and nonprofit organizations, providing them with tools and other technical support. And then just in the last few years, I started to delve really in on the activism side of things myself and helped to start an organization that does a lot of work around universal basic income doing both advocacy around that topic and also some policy development work in that field.

What Role Did Your PhD Have in Starting Your Business?

02:58 Emily: Yeah. Super, super exciting. Thank you. Clearly, you have a lot of skills and a lot of interesting experiences that you’ve brought to bear on these most recent endeavors. So, kind of backing up slightly to the business that you started, ShareProgress. How did your PhD prepare you for ultimately starting that business? Obviously, you had some work experience after that point before you started it, but how did the PhD specifically prepare you? Or how did it not prepare you very well for that?

03:25 Jim: So, I would say the PhD itself wasn’t terribly relevant for starting that because I was really in a hard research area and was working on algorithms and models that didn’t have any clear path to monetization to turn it into a company. So, that I don’t think was terribly relevant. What was a bit more relevant is I was involved with, at the university I was working with, which is the Institute of Technology in Lausanne, Switzerland. They actually were making a pretty significant investment in cultivating entrepreneurship amongst their students, both undergraduate and graduate. And so there was a program on campus that was talking a lot about that. And so, I feel like there was some stuff I learned through experience with that going through events, and they had various activities that they would organize. And so, I felt like that it was informative in some ways, but it really was very much focused on taking the sort of research you do through your doctoral degree, through your academic work afterwards and turning that into a company. And my company that I ended up starting really didn’t resemble that much at all because that was much more informed by the political work I’d done and seeing what the needs were in that space. So, there were there aspects around “what does it look like to go through that process?” that I would say generally provided me with some guidance. But as far as the specifics, really not much at all.

Jim’s Entrepreneurship Journey

05:02 Emily: Did you have in your mind at that time that you did want to pursue entrepreneurship?

05:08 Jim: I did. That was something from I think pretty early on in college I realized was an area I was quite interested in. And when I was graduating from undergraduate, actually, I kind of had in my head either go to grad school or do a startup. I didn’t have an idea for a startup, so I said, “Well I guess it’s grad school.” But it definitely was something that I had been thinking about for awhile.

05:34 Emily: And did you initially, when you were getting involved during your PhD program with this training program for entrepreneurship, were you thinking about the possibility that you might turn your PhD work into a company? Or were you already like, “No, that’s definitely not going to happen, but this is just like for future reference?”

05:50 Jim: More the latter. Maybe there were a few moments where I considered something that was closely connected, but in general, that wasn’t where I saw opportunity. I more generally was thinking about, “Oh, I want to do something at some point. And this is an area that interests me and is just an area that’ll be helpful to know more about.”

Relevant Technical Skills Gained During PhD

06:10 Emily: Gotcha. And what about, I guess I could say, your technical chops. Did you use those in your business, or were you always hiring out for that? And then also is that something you got from your PhD, or do you think your undergraduate education was sufficient in that area?

06:23 Jim: I think there definitely was some of that from my PhD. Obviously, as an undergrad I had done a lot in that space, but I think that some of the specific technical skills and areas of expertise–and I think also just generally understanding different technological ecosystems–some of that did come through in my PhD. When I was starting my company, I very much structured it to not have put myself in the role of that technical person because I was interested in really taking on the CEO mantle in the more traditional sense. So, I had hired out for a developer to actually build out our software platform from the get-go. That said, I was being involved in various ways with the technical stuff throughout, and at different points definitely got more engaged on that front. And so, having that background definitely proved to be important and a valuable asset. And honestly, I mean I think those of us who are deeply into tech, and particularly doing software development and whatnot, we think of tech in a pretty extreme way as compared to the population in general. And so, just knowing how to work with various technical systems out there, I know it’s a leap for a lot of people not committed to that space. And so, certainly my background had equipped me well to be able to handle that sort of thing.

07:50 Emily: Yeah, I kind of see this as being a common sort of value of the PhD. You sort of prove yourself in an area, you can work very deeply, you can master something completely. And then after that, a lot of people do take a step back and allow other people to do that kind of work and do more of the management. And that’s kind of the PI model. Right? So, that sort of does apply, in a way, to what you did after. But it sounds like the actual work experience that you had after your PhD with the Obama campaign and so forth, that was what gave you the idea–right?–for what your company would ultimately be. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Inspiration While Working for the Democratic National Convention

08:19 Jim: Yeah, so the work I was doing, to some degree on the campaign, but in particular when I was out in D.C., I was working for the Democratic National Committee at that point, and we were actually running, effectively, the continuation of the Obama campaign. It was called Organizing for America at that point. And so, my role, I was the director of digital analytics and also web development for the program. And so, it was really paying attention to/digging in on what was actually happening under the hood with all of our digital presence, our social media, our email lists, our website, and so on. And so, I got a chance to see what’s possible, what’s not, what works well, what doesn’t. And one of the observations I had was that so much of our ability to do anything, whether that was raise money, whether it was to try calls to Congress, whether it was to get people turning out in their local communities for events, it depended on us having a wide reach.

09:19 Jim: And that reach, to a large degree, came from us intentionally doing outreach to get people involved. Whether that was big publicity efforts, whether it was paid acquisition online. But then the third category being people bringing in their friends. And actually during that time period, that was really crucial for us that so much of the new people we had coming in, it wasn’t from anything we were doing in particular, it was because our existing supporters were recruiting people they knew to get involved in a campaign and whatever the moment was. And it was an area that there really had not been much investment in as far as figuring out, “Alright, well how do we facilitate, and how do we amplify this?” So, that was really the motivation for my company, which was, “Let’s build some software tools that make this more effective and easier to do.”

How to Gain a Wide-Reaching Audience

10:10 Jim: And so, basically we had a plug and play solution where organizations, as they were doing this sort of advocacy work, they could be encouraging their supporters to be reaching out to their friends through various digital social channels. So, social media, Facebook, Twitter, but also just getting people to email folks they knew and say, “Hey, I’m involved in this really important thing. Will you be involved as well?” And that’s proved very, very effective at bringing in new people, particularly in high-energy moments. And then we allowed organizations to track the analytics on what was happening there. And so they really understood what was going on and actually allowed them to do controlled testing around what sort of messaging they could give to their supporters that made them more convincing, basically, to people they knew. So, when their supporters post on Facebook they could have a couple of different headlines, a couple of different thumbnail images and the system would be able to measure, “Okay, well how effective are those different pieces of content at getting their friends to say, ‘Oh, I’m interested,’ and click through it and get involved.”

Evolution of ShareProgress

11:16 Emily: Yeah. Super scientific approach to that. Right? I’m sure your background helped with that, the design of it. Okay, so that’s around the product that you created. I think you said when you introduced yourself that this was maybe six, seven years ago that you started the company. Two years ago, you transitioned more to doing this advocacy around universal basic income. So, I’m curious about how your role within the company, and in particular the time that you put into it, evolved over that, five-ish-year period.

11:44 Jim: Yeah. So, at the start, the software that I just described, the plan was for that to be the company. That was what we were going to do. I realized relatively early on about six months in that the growth that we were seeing from that wasn’t going to allow us to sustain. And in exploring different investment strategies, the type of company I was looking to build, which very much had a social mission, wasn’t looking to make as much money as possible, as quickly as possible if that compromising that, wasn’t actually a great target for traditional investment routes with startups. And so, what I decided to do was to couple on with that a consulting arm where we would actually work with the same sorts of organizations that we were providing the software to, but a system with either data analysis work or some sort of web design development work, which is similar to what I had been doing out in D.C. prior to that.

12:42 Jim: And so, that actually ended up being the bulk of what the company did for most of its existence. We were able to find clients there. I was able to scale up our staff with that sort of work. And so, while we were doing the software, we were continuing to grow the consulting side of the company. And so, our peak was I think early 2017 we were nine people and most on the consulting side. But it was around that time I had realized–I had known pretty early on, I didn’t really want to start a consulting company. That seemed like where the path to profitability was. But around that time, my interests had started to shift to more of the advocacy work around universal basic income. And we went through some tough periods as far as expectations around business and profits and not matching reality. So, we had to do some downsizing. And so, at that point I actually decided, “This isn’t where I want to be investing my time and effort for the future. So, let’s just ramp down the consultant product company.” And at that point, our software was making enough money that I could support a much smaller staff. And so, over the course of 2017 I went through a process around that. That ended with, at the end of the year, I was having more of a skeleton crew and requiring not very much of my time in order to just keep our software running, or the clients that we had there.

Consulting as a Stage of Growth

14:20 Emily: So, I’m curious, with the evolution of adding the consulting aspect and then winding it down, are you happy that you did that, or do you think that you should have just stuck with the software product kind of throughout that whole time and come to this point where you are now maybe a little bit sooner?

14:36 Jim: Well, it honestly wasn’t an option to do exactly that because we did need the consulting early on in order to make payroll. So, it took a while for us to build up enough of a client base and the software where that was an option at all.

14:49 Emily: So, it’s a stage of growth, then.

14:51 Jim: It was a stage of growth. Whether or not I would have invested as much as I did in that, I think looking at it solely from a business perspective, I think that was probably a mistake. I think that it would have been a better approach to say, “Let’s keep focused on the software. Let’s do this as much as we need to, but let’s not really invest in growing that as the company.” Because I think that in most cases, when you’re trying to do more than one thing, you’re not going to do either of them as well. And so, that would have been the better business decision. As far as from a personal perspective, I think I certainly learned a lot through the whole process. So, I wouldn’t say it was a bad decision from that. It certainly was stressful at times, but I think that it’s hard for me to make a valuative judgment on it.

San Francisco Venture Capital (VC) Environment

15:40 Emily: Sure. I want to say for the context, for the listeners, that you live in San Francisco right now, and you mentioned living in D.C. before that. Did you start the company when you were living in San Francisco?

15:50 Jim: Yes, that’s right.

15:51 Emily: So, you’re in a very different environment than probably most of the listeners who are maybe still on academic campuses, you know, spread throughout the U.S. and other places. So, anyway, I just want to say that because you probably had a lot of exposure just from your environment in things like how to approach for VC funding, whether that’s actually a good idea for your business. You decided that the values that they’re going for are not exactly the values that you were going for. And so it wasn’t a good match there. This is actually something I’ve heard about quite a bit that people elect not to go the VC funding route for various, I guess, “vision” reasons.

16:23 Jim: Well, I should clarify that I did attempt to raise funds for the company with already knowing that there would be certain people I wouldn’t accept money from, certain types of investment that I wouldn’t be comfortable with. But, I was hoping to be able to do it in some capacity and was not successful at it. So, that was part of it. Maybe had I met the right people, those things could have looked differently. But I will say, both prior to that and since then, having observed the dynamics in that space, I see how that would be a challenge for many, many people who are attempting to do something similar. But it wasn’t as though I was equipped to know upfront, “Oh, there’s no way this is going to work.” It was very much a learning experience for me.

Current Role in the Business

17:11 Emily: Yeah, that sounds really great, actually. And you’re still living in San Francisco, so you’re still exposed to all of that stuff. But I’m curious about this decision that you said around two years ago, you wanted to focus more on the UBI stuff and you restructured the business. And now, how much time do you spend working on the business now, maybe per week or per month? And what is your role in it now, exactly?

17:32 Jim: Yeah. Well, I’m still CEO of the business, but to be honest, it probably averages about five hours a week at this point because we want to keep running, we want to keep our clients happy there. The idea is really to have it be maintaining the service rather than doing new things. And so, that just doesn’t require that much work. So, I have an employee who is, basically, like any sort of support we need to provide, is dealing with that, keeping an eye on things, and then myself overseeing things. And that allows us to keep going with that.

18:06 Emily: And to ask kind of a more pointed financial question, but you are supporting yourself entirely off of your business income for which you’re only putting in about five hours a week at this point?

18:16 Jim: That’s right, yes.

Financial Independence and Early Retirement (FIRE) Movement

18:17 Emily: Wonderful. Wonderful set up for you. So, we’ll talk about this a little bit more in the upcoming UBI conversation. But the reason I was kind of interested in your story and sharing it on the podcast is because there’s this big movement in the personal finance community called the FIRE movement, Financial Independence and Early Retirement. In season three, I released a pair of interviews with someone on that subject. And your story, while the FIRE community might not call you financially independent by their definition, a lot of what they’re going for, financial freedom, you have bought for yourself with your business, right? So, there’s a lot of overlap there between the goals of the FIRE movement and what you’ve done for yourself. So, I was really interested in having you on the podcast for that reason.

Business Advice for Early-Career PhDs

18:59 Emily: So, okay, now that we’re going to transition to sort of the universal basic income aspect of our conversation, I kind of wanted to wrap up the aspect of our conversation about the business by just asking if you had to give some advice, if another early-career PhD asked you advice around starting a business, what would you tell that person now?

Advice #1: Talk to People

19:20 Jim: I think just go and talk to a lot of people who’ve been through the process because I think part of the challenge is it does look very different in different situations. And that was something I struggled with early is thinking, “Okay, well, there’s going to be standards around this. And so did a bunch of Googling online for like, “Okay, what is the standard, whether it’s around the equity or whether it’s around other aspects of the business.” And I found some stuff but not as much as I expected. And so, I think that, if you can just talk to a lot of people who have gone through the process, you get a sense of the diversity of ways that can work. And so I think it can give you a better idea as to what the trajectories may seem to be. That was something I know I struggle a lot with, and I think may have delayed me deciding to start a business, is that it just felt too amorphous and scary. Alright, what does it look to get something like this off the ground? And in hindsight, it’s such a simpler process than so much of the work I had done before, but I think that there is that opacity and then those unknowns that make it difficult. I feel like I was not unique in having that perspective.

Advice #2: Find Your Focus

20:33 Jim: And then I think focus is another big thing that I continually struggle with frankly, but I see many, many people struggle with. There’s many great things to do and, as you’re doing something, you’ll see many other, adjacent great things to do as well, but that can so easily be a distraction from actually figuring out, “Alright, what is the core of this successful business going to look like?” And if you let yourself be pulled in that direction, it can really detract from your chance of building something big.

Commercial

21:07 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. I bet you and your peers are hungry for financial information right now, especially if it’s tailored for your unique PhD experience. I offer seminars, webinars, and workshops on personal finance for early-career PhDs that can be billed as professional development or personal wellness programming. My events cover a wide range of personal finance topics or take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you’re interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. We can absolutely find a way to get this great content to you and your peers even while social distancing. Now, back to our interview.

Should Entrepreneurs Move to San Francisco?

22:06 Emily: I’m trying to think about for someone who is, let’s say still affiliated with the university, I would imagine there are some people to talk to there, networking, especially universities that have incubators or something from launching a business out of. But I asked you before about living in San Francisco, what do you think about moving to a place like San Francisco where you can just run into other people who are on a similar path? What do you think about that idea?

22:31 Jim: I mean, I think it’s a very double-edged sword because certainly the density of that happening is a significant asset for a lot of this sort of work. And it is so expensive here that if you’re looking to hire locally, you’re gonna be paying, sometimes easily two, three, four times as much as you’d be paying, not too far away. And so, I think it’s a question of balancing those sorts of things. I mean, I think there are ways, like either if you live somewhere not too far away, where you can go into the city and have those easy conversations in-person with folks, but still be in a place where it doesn’t cost you thousands and thousands of dollars every month to pay for your rent. That could be your compromise. Or, just take the occasional trip out here. Assuming you can afford whatever the travel costs are. And then I think there are other areas where you’re starting to see better density. I don’t really have a great sense for what it actually looks like yet. And I do think that there is a cultural component to why Silicon Valley is Silicon Valley because there’s kind of a pay-it-forward mentality, pretty broadly, where people who have done well are eager to help new people coming in, which I think has made a big difference. But yeah, you get both sides of it.

Advocacy for Universal Basic Income

23:54 Emily: I see. Okay. So, now that you pay for your life based on your business, which you only work in a few hours per week now, I’m curious about this transition that you made two years ago. I mean, you said it was kind of like you became more interested in universal basic income and that movement. You then structured your life so that you didn’t have to work so much. So, I guess the question is, how has your experience of having that business and having that source of income that requires only a very small amount of work at this point or small amount of time, how did that lead you into your advocacy for universal basic income?

24:34 Jim: So, I think there are a couple of different ways that I can answer that. So, as far as what first got me interested in universal basic income, a big part of it was the process of starting my company because I had certain expectations coming in around staffing related to operations, to payroll, to HR services, and expecting that, assuming things at all got off the ground pretty quickly, I would need to be hiring at least part-time help to assist with that. And what I found is that there were all these new online services that automated a lot of that. And so, from the beginning for payroll in the company, we use Gusto. It used to be called ZenPayroll, which you have to plug in the information to start with people’s where they live, their bank account transfer information, what the unemployment insurance rate is in the state. But then every twice a month you just say, “Okay, go,” and it pays them and files their taxes and that’s it. And costs not very much money to do it. And so, that being one example of how technology is allowing us, not just to replace jobs because I think you lose something when you describe it just that way, but is A) definitely changing the way that that work is being done, and B) and this is the thing that really stood out for me, is allowing much smaller groups of people to be able to do far, far more than was true before.

Small Business is the New “Big”

26:14 Jim: Because in the past, if you wanted to start a big company, or I shouldn’t say big, I should say a company that was going to generate a lot of income and wealth, kind of inherent to the process is you would need to involve a lot of other people. And it’s far less true now. You can have a team, I mean if you look at I think, what was it, the WhatsApp team, which is like half a dozen, a dozen people who then sell a company for multiple billions of dollars. Never in human history before could something like that happen. And so I think that was an A-ha moment for me and realizing that things are already starting to and will continue to look very differently than they have in the past and we need to stop assuming that the economic solutions that have been effective before are necessarily the right ones going forward.

27:06 Emily: So, it’s not necessarily just jobs are going away, but maybe some jobs are going away, some other jobs are popping up, the people that create the companies and the software and so forth. Are you also speaking about wealth concentration?

27:20 Jim: Yeah.

27:21 Emily: Gotcha.

Changing Mindset Around Universal Basic Income

27:22 Jim: Yeah. And I think for me, that was as much of a factor as jobs are not. I think we’re used to thinking about the jobs thing, so it’s more clear why that would be problematic if we had only a requirement that 10% of the people have a job. But I think that, particularly as I’ve worked on the issue more, that piece more clearly is a big issue that I think as our systems are structured now is really incompatible with having a fully-functioning society, I would say. Anyway, so that was kind of how I first started to think about UBI, universal basic income. And I don’t even remember where I first heard about the idea. I think I read maybe some piece about the referendum that Switzerland was pursuing.

28:18 Jim: It started back in 2013. But my initial reaction was, “This seems dumb, frankly.” I was like, “Oh, this seems like an oversimplification. Just thinking you can give people money and that will solve things. And then I started to look more into it and look at the research and understanding what are the actual, both economic and psychological ramifications when you do this. And it turns out it was incredibly positive that this is something where we have, at this point, a lot of evidence that unconditional cash–people take that and use it for whatever they actually need to use it for. And that, in fact, it confers a sense of agency to people that they might not otherwise have. And that in itself is hugely beneficial because it encourages people to think more longer term in terms of sensing more responsibility for a situation, all things that are actually very valuable in sending people out for their own longterm success.

29:15 Emily: I want to leave this for part two of this interview. Where we’ll be talking less about your personal story and more about, well, maybe what you’ve been learning over the last few years. We’re going to take a step back and define universal basic income because we haven’t done that yet. So, listeners, if the next part of this conversation sounds like it’s going to be really interesting to you, please tune in next week. For the second part of the interview, we’ll be talking a lot more about universal basic income with the expert, Dr. Jim Pugh.

Outtro

29:40 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.